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Cue Sheets for Nosferatu / Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde

PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:19 pm
by gentlemanfarmer
Does anyone know where one should go, library, university collection, etc. to find copies of the Erdmann cue sheet for Nosferatu, and the Barrymore Jekyll and Hyde.

Many thanks!

PostPosted: Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:19 pm
by Jack Theakston
Erdmann's composition wasn't a cue sheet, it was a composed score for the film.

I've not seen a cue sheet for Jekyll and Hyde, but I've seen the compilation Hugo Riesenfeld and Frank S. Adams did a year later for a Theater Organist Society meeting.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:31 pm
by gentlemanfarmer
Thanks for the clarification on Nosferatu, I misunderstood the nature of the score from the credits of the Kino restoration. As I did some more research it made more sense, a compiled score was created from the surviving material with additional works to fill in the rest. I thought it was a superb match to the film, the restoration of the score (as far as it could be reconstructed), and the additional selections.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:32 pm
by gentlemanfarmer
Is the Jekyll and Hyde compilation available anywhere for study?
Thanks again.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:10 am
by Jack Theakston
The listing of Riesenfeld and Adams' score to the film was printed in an issue of American Organist in 1921, but a more accessible version of it is printed in Rick Altman's Silent Film Sound, a must for someone interested in movie theater as well as accompaniment history.

Riesenfeld's scores tend to be more classically-oriented, culling incidental selections in everything from popular operettas from the time to obscure operas from the previous centuries. Like many scores from the period, they're wildly hit or miss.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:17 am
by gentlemanfarmer
Thanks, I read Altman's book about 6 years ago, when I first became interested in how to accompany a silent film, and I don't remember that being in there, so it was great to have the reference pointed out to me.

At the time I read it, it was an inter-library loan item, and I've not consulted it since I read it then, it's expensive and the local libraries have stopped doing interlibrary loans due to budget cuts, even the local University were I study doesn't have it, and I need to save my loan requests through the University for books for my actually research! Again budget cuts at work in Pennsylvania. I'm glad to have the reference again. I will try to save some pennies and get my own copy. Lately my pennies have gone to sheet music, but finding and reading more as I research leads me to want to create a mini-research library.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:23 am
by Jack Theakston
There are a number of libraries and universities out there that have fairly good theater music collections that are accessible. I used to go nuts about trying to track down full arrangements for pieces, but now focus on primarily the piano/conductor score, which can be re-orchestrated more suitably for whoever is playing the score. Some arrangers of the period were quite good, while others lacked in that department.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:00 pm
by gentlemanfarmer
Thanks again for the advice!

I've only been interested in an "orchestral" approach since this March, previously it has just been organ solo, and for that I have a very large library of pre 1930 piano, organ and song sheet music including a couple of the silent film folio collections for piano/organ - one of the things I hope to do in the coming days is visit the music librarian at our University, and see if any of the old band/orchestra/theater club music survives from before 1930 and where it is housed, if it's still on campus. My guess, if it's still there, no one ever bothers it . I agree about the arrangers, some of the scores are very nice, others um, well,...interesting might be the polite word. I've been creating my own full scores of each and then I plan to adjust the parts once we've decided on a film, have firm commitments from the players, and decide on the pieces. I hope to do a little more research after the semester ends as well, at other short drive locations.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:58 am
by Rodney
gentlemanfarmer wrote:... one of the things I hope to do in the coming days is visit the music librarian at our University, and see if any of the old band/orchestra/theater club music survives from before 1930 and where it is housed, if it's still on campus....


These things tend to be kept in "Special Collections," and sometimes you need to get friendly with librarians to get access to it, or pay work-study people to photocopy it for you. Knowing what pieces you're after is, of course, very useful, so you're a step ahead there. And there are collections at a number of universities (I've got some listed at the bottom of our "About Photoplay Music" page), and if you find more, please let me know and I'll list them. I learned last fall that there's a huge collection at the University at Austin Texas, but it's uncatalogued, so it's not yet very useful.

Unlike Jacks's experiences, I find that almost all of the historical arrangements can be used as published, as long as you have piano, violin, and cello. All of the important lines are cross-cued into those instruments. I'd say that fewer than 1 in 50 of the pieces you hear on the Mont Alto orchestra scores have been re-arranged to work with our quintet of piano, violin, cello, clarinet, and trumpet; and most of those are dance pieces from the mid to late 1920s that use saxophones extensively.

For instance, on the "Ace of Spades" piece currently on our home page, the first time through the trio (at about 01:37) was originally arranged for three saxophones, so I transcribed it to violin, piano, and clarinet. Then there's a trumpet solo that sounds improvised but was written out (for the many non-jazzers in the business) note for note in the arrangement, then a trombone "solo" that I gave to our cellist by simply handing him the original trombone part. Everything else is straight off the original score.

Make sure that your players know that the cue notes for missing instruments should be played, and I think you'll be fine.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:41 pm
by gentlemanfarmer
Thanks Rodney, I started my new round of research when a google search took me to your About Photoplay Music page - I know at my alma mater, they threw out tons of old band / orchestra club scores from this time period, in the mid-1990's - I had no interest in it then, and most of it was fragmentary, damaged, and incomplete, and I only found out about it at the end of the tossing out period anyways - talk about regrets! I don't know if any remains there or not - I know they kept Jazz scores and complete classical scores, so perhaps complete earlier scores were saved as well, but I know the ones from the 1920's into the 50's that weren't "real" music or were in tattered condition, got the heave-ho, I'm sure the music majors picked some of it up and the rest went the way of all flesh.

I suppose my impression of the score's arrangement and my not fully understanding their choices is based on my study of classical scores, as I enter the theater orchestra parts into Sibelius I'm often puzzled by the choices of orchestration, but I need to remember these pieces have different demands. I just find it odd how in one passage the piano reduction follows pattern A, and then in another section where the orchestral writing is nearly identical, the reduction will follow pattern B. As I study more of the scores I can see that balance issues must have driven a lot of their decisions, it will be interesting to hear with live musicians how some of the original arrangements work.

And since we'll have somewhere between 4 to 9 players, I'll have to think those choices through, we will have at least piano, violin, cello and cornet/trumpet, and flute; and it looks like a trombone, trap/timpani player, and clarinet are possible. Some will volunteer, hopefully we'll find funding for the others, I'd love to pay them all, but this has always been a free evening with no real budget, just enough to pay to license the films; and if we pick up a second violin if the ensemble grows to eight players, I'd like to find a way to give them at least an honorarium. So it was refreshing to hear that you rarely have to adjust parts. That will save time and energy and keep things more authentic.

As I play them and play through the piano parts I am sometimes surprised by the quality of the music, it's not Mahler, but sometimes it is just lovely and quite challenging, those piano players had some chops - the better quality photo-play stuff stacks up with late romantic piano pieces in terms of technical demands, the other parts (violin 1 excepted) are very sight-readable, at least for cello, flute, cornet - great music, all of it. Especially some of Zamecnik's pieces and some of the intro's to his more song like numbers are quite original, you can hear Debussy and even Ravel like things at times. Very carefully crafted, and he could also turn out a schmaltzy number or a rag-time march with the best of them. The discussions here have been so helpful to read and see the back and forth, differences of opinions, practical advice and theoretics. I don't know how I missed this site for years...grrr...better late than never.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:59 pm
by Rodney
...and if you're interested in recent history, our cue sheet for the Kino release of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is available on our recordings page.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:32 pm
by gentlemanfarmer
Yes, thank you so much, I had not noticed that before. If we do Dr. J & Mr. H, this will be most helpful, and I'll post my preliminary cue sheet as well, I'd be interested to see what you think.

By the way your Mark of Zorro score is wonderful!

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:28 am
by Rodney
gentlemanfarmer wrote:Yes, thank you so much, I had not noticed that before. If we do Dr. J & Mr. H, this will be most helpful, and I'll post my preliminary cue sheet as well, I'd be interested to see what you think.

By the way your Mark of Zorro score is wonderful!


If there's any piece in our scores that you can't identify, please drop me a line. I'm always glad to share.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:20 am
by missdupont
I believe it's the Interstate Theatre Collection at the HRHRC at the University of Texas that contains the large music collection. It's been over 20 years since I worked there, but I think it was themes and score sheets rather than sheet music.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:27 am
by Rodney
missdupont wrote:I believe it's the Interstate Theatre Collection at the HRHRC at the University of Texas that contains the large music collection. It's been over 20 years since I worked there, but I think it was themes and score sheets rather than sheet music.


Okay! I knew it was the Interstate Theater Collection, but I was told it was complete orchestrated arrangements, used to prepare scores to go out with the films to the theaters in the chain. If you've worked there, I'm sure your information is better than mine... still, it would be nice to know for sure.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:29 am
by missdupont
Rodney, you're right, I meant scores along with cue sheets, no sheet music. It is huge, and used to occupy a large back wall in a hallway.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:08 pm
by BenModel
If you're looking for a specific piece and can't turn it up, check with me as well. We have a modest collection of photoplay music for small orchestra (only 360 pieces), but we may have something you're looking for or which a library has but is going to offer to charge you a great deal for.

Ben
www.silentclowns.com

PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:26 pm
by gentlemanfarmer
Thanks everyone for the kind offers of help and the clues and hints and places to look, I've got to survive the rest of the semester, tie up a project or two and then start work on the score. Hopefully I'll be writing away on a specific film score by mid-May. I've a few free weeks to go dig in libraries then as well.

We conducted a survey of our audience this year for films they'd like to see and we hope to do one of the top winners, The Mark of Zorro was number one, The Sheik was second, and then a five way tie for third place, from which Nosferatu or Dr. J & Mr. H., were chosen as finalists. All of them would be fun to score and play for, plus we'll do a comedy short that compliments our feature. So I will probably be back asking for more help! In fact I've thought of two other questions I'd like to ask, but they deserve fresh threads.

Thanks again!

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:33 pm
by ClayKing
sorry - dupe post.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:34 pm
by ClayKing
Rodney wrote: I learned last fall that there's a huge collection at the University at Austin Texas, but it's uncatalogued, so it's not yet very useful.


When I was visiting in Austin around ten years ago I spent an afternoon at the University looking through some random boxes that had been pulled for me. Unfortunately I can't find my notes. The collection included items into the 'forties, so the theater that donated the collection apparently presented live performances along with their film programs well into the sound era. One of the unusual items was a hand-written copy of an orchestration from one of the big New York theaters - possibly Rialto, Rivoli, or some other theater beginning with "R" (can't remember). The orchestration was for an enormous, symphonic sized orchestra, probably around 80 pieces, if memory serves. As I recall the collection was stored in boxes alphabetically.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:35 pm
by Andrew Greene
gentlemanfarmer wrote:
We conducted a survey of our audience this year for films they'd like to see and we hope to do one of the top winners, The Mark of Zorro was number one, The Sheik was second, and then a five way tie for third place, from which Nosferatu or Dr. J & Mr. H., were chosen as finalists. All of them would be fun to score and play for, plus we'll do a comedy short that compliments our feature.

I know this thread is about a month old, but I thought I'd chime in.

Make sure to have time to work with silent scores before you show them in public. Unless you're working with musicians that have done this before, give them time to build up endurance to play for 20+ minutes straight. With my Peacherine Ragtime Orchestra, I learned quickly that it takes a couple of rehearsals at least to get the music down, THEN you have to try and run it with the film. If endurance isn't an issue, then you're all set, but it does wear down on a musician to play silent films for long periods of time.

Just my two cents...

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:47 pm
by Rodney
Andrew Greene wrote:
gentlemanfarmer wrote:
We conducted a survey of our audience this year for films they'd like to see and we hope to do one of the top winners, The Mark of Zorro was number one, The Sheik was second, and then a five way tie for third place, from which Nosferatu or Dr. J & Mr. H., were chosen as finalists. All of them would be fun to score and play for, plus we'll do a comedy short that compliments our feature.

I know this thread is about a month old, but I thought I'd chime in.

Make sure to have time to work with silent scores before you show them in public. Unless you're working with musicians that have done this before, give them time to build up endurance to play for 20+ minutes straight. With my Peacherine Ragtime Orchestra, I learned quickly that it takes a couple of rehearsals at least to get the music down, THEN you have to try and run it with the film. If endurance isn't an issue, then you're all set, but it does wear down on a musician to play silent films for long periods of time.

Just my two cents...


Wait 'til you start doing The Thief of Bagdad or L'Argent! We try to put an intermission in if we go longer than about 70 minutes, but a lot of film programs are not used to doing breaks and resist it...

PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:36 pm
by gentlemanfarmer
Gentlemen,
Thanks for the excellent advice, most of my players are used to the pit of the opera, musical, or ballet or playing full length large scale orchestral or chamber works; so I'm hoping (fingers crossed) this shouldn't be too much of a problem for them, plus I intend to varying the scoring to give various instrumentalists a break, also give the audience a variety of tone colors, at least as much as is possible, and we will probably give some sections over to the piano alone, especially where improv. will make the most sense. We've already decided if we do a 90 minute film, which we are leaning towards, we would have an intermission during the feature. I'm nervous, but excited about the project. It must be good though, we've had only successes in the past with our screenings, but playing the organ solo allows one person complete control, turning it over to 9 musicians and a conductor, that should be interesting, plus I don't have it all set in stone yet, this is a work (attempted) in progress. Keep the advice coming, I welcome it from past practitioners.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:56 am
by Andrew Greene
Rodney wrote:Wait 'til you start doing The Thief of Bagdad or L'Argent! We try to put an intermission in if we go longer than about 70 minutes, but a lot of film programs are not used to doing breaks and resist it...

We've already run into that, or at least we're about to. In May we're doing Chaplin's "One AM" (the 27 minute tinted print) and Keaton's "College" (the Kino print). The plan is to do One AM first (since the score for that is mainly ragtime music, which we're used to), then switch over to College. We're dividing the film in half (so ~30 for each half) and putting a 15 minute intermission in between the two halves. If we ran the whole thing straight, I'm sure my musicians would riot!
We had to really plan where to put the intermission in College, since either we had to do it before it got to the Track & Field scenes or immediately after. Both places don't have the longest break to stop the film, so it'll be interesting the day of!

Re: Cue Sheets for Nosferatu / Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:52 am
by misteranalog
I looked through Worldcat.org, did not find any sort of sheet music for Hans Erdmann in the US or Germany, if any knows of a specific place that has cues, sheet music etc, for Erdmann, let the rest of us know.

Re: Cue Sheets for Nosferatu / Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:55 am
by misteranalog
Youtube has a clip of Nosferatu with Erdmann's original score conducted by Gillian Anderson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-Rv6AqfqlU

BUT:
where did they get the printed score by Erdmann's from?????

Re: Cue Sheets for Nosferatu / Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde

PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 1:59 pm
by BenModel
Her website is www.gilliananderson.it. Ask her...?

Re: Cue Sheets for Nosferatu / Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:02 pm
by andybenz
As far as I know, Erdmann's score for Nosferatu was published as "Fantastisch-Romantische Suiten" (by German publisher Bote und Bock) which was supposed to be music for a variety of moods in a silent picture. Erdmann wrote a very important book about music for silent films "Allegemeines Handbuch der Filmmusik" together with Ludwig Brav and Guiseppe Becce. When the score for Nosferatu was restored they tried to figure out what music should go with a certain part of the Nosferatu movie. As Erdmann's book contained a large index of musical pieces for certain moods it was possible to restore the (almost?) complete original score to Nosferatu. The Erdmann Suites are at the Library of Congress (in the original orchestral version). The Gillian Anderson score has been reorchestrated.
This article should give all the answers:
http://www.gilliananderson.it/index.php ... &Itemid=29" target="_blank" target="_blank