The restored version of King of jazz

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Donald Binks

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostTue Nov 15, 2016 6:59 pm

dede wrote:
Donald Binks wrote:
Changsham wrote:
Thanks. Booked my tickets today for the Boxing Day showing.


I too am in the process of organising my booking for the 1.30pm performance on Boxing Day. Should you run into me, please come up and say hello!


Be prepared to be blown away by how good it looks on the big screen.


I last saw it when it was screened at the old "Walhalla" cinema in Richmond back about 1979. I have purposely not looked at it on DVD or tape in the last year or so, so that I will have my breath taken away. I have always liked Paul Whiteman, John Boles and Bing Crosby so I shall be enjoying myself immensely! :D
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Donald Binks

"I tawt I taw a Pooty Tat. I did! I did taw a Pooty Tat!
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moviepas

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostWed Nov 16, 2016 2:00 am

That print cost $1000 and came from Brentford Labs/London(Rank Film Labs) via USA. It was, in fact, copied from the BBC's own print. The purchaser, now deceased a few years at 96, on sold it to the local Bing Crosby Club. It was 16mm. The original screening on two nights was at Camberwell Civic Centre about April or so 1978 and included a program, a 7" 45rpm disc with the overture played by Reginald Dixon on the Blackpool Wurlitzer and a recreation stage show. I am led to believe it had last been previously screened(in 35mm) at the now lost theatrettes uder the old Australia Hotel in Melbourne in 1945. Probably the 1933 shortened version. A set of Vitaphone discs were donated to the ABC Record Library around 1978 by the wife of a deceased Adelaide projector operator. The ABC did play them as part of their Saturday night nostalgia show then. A listener said some of the scenes(comedy, Slim Summerville, who is on my TV screen now in the new Blu Ray of Western Union) were different to the 16mm film screened at the Civic Centre. I don't know and the ABC never fronted with the promised reel to reel tape of the discs to the society.
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dede

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostWed Nov 16, 2016 3:00 am

moviepas wrote:That print cost $1000 and came from Brentford Labs/London(Rank Film Labs) via USA. It was, in fact, copied from the BBC's own print. The purchaser, now deceased a few years at 96, on sold it to the local Bing Crosby Club. It was 16mm. The original screening on two nights was at Camberwell Civic Centre about April or so 1978 and included a program, a 7" 45rpm disc with the overture played by Reginald Dixon on the Blackpool Wurlitzer and a recreation stage show. I am led to believe it had last been previously screened(in 35mm) at the now lost theatrettes uder the old Australia Hotel in Melbourne in 1945. Probably the 1933 shortened version. A set of Vitaphone discs were donated to the ABC Record Library around 1978 by the wife of a deceased Adelaide projector operator. The ABC did play them as part of their Saturday night nostalgia show then. A listener said some of the scenes(comedy, Slim Summerville, who is on my TV screen now in the new Blu Ray of Western Union) were different to the 16mm film screened at the Civic Centre. I don't know and the ABC never fronted with the promised reel to reel tape of the discs to the society.


Seems like the discs might have been donated to the NFSA. A search brings this up.

Title No: 709476
Title: THE KING OF JAZZ : [ORIGINAL MOVIE SOUNDTRACK]
Production Date: 1930
Produced as: Music

Categories: Jazz music; Sound track
Media: Sound Recording, Published

Summary: Contents: 1. Opening credits --
2. Music hath charms/Bing Crosby with the band --
3. Opening remarks/Charles Irwin --
4. Cartoon, My Lord delivered Daniel/Bing Crosby --
5. Introducing the band/Charles Irwin with Paul Whiteman --
6. Meet the boys --
7. Meet the girls --
8. My bridal veil/Jeanette Loff and Stanley Smith --
9. The daily meows (comedy skit) --
10. The Rhythm Boys --
11. (It Happened in) Monterey/John Boles and Jeanette Loff --
12. In conference (Comedy skit) --
13. Jack White (The Property Man) --
14. A bench in the park/Glenn Tryon and Laura LaPlante, the Brox Sisters and the Rhythm Boys --
15. Spring time --
16. All noisy on the Eastern Front (Comedy skit) --
17. Variations based on noises from a garage/Wille Hall --
18. Rhapsody in blue/Paul Whiteman Orchestra --
19. Oh! Forevermore! (comedy skit) --
20. My ragamuffin Romeo/Jeanie Lang and George Chiles --
21. Horse costume --
22. Two parents not married --
23. Happy feet/Bing Crosby, Al Rinker, Harry Barris --
24. A meeting with Father (skit) --
25. I like to do things for you/Jeanie Lang, Grace Hayes, William Kent, Nell O'Day --
26. Has anybody seen our Nellie?/Churchill Ross, John Arledge, Frank Leslie, Walter Brennan --
27. The song of the dawn/John Boles --
28. The melting pot of music (medley) --

General note: Soundtrack of the original motion picture. -- Reels No. 1-12.
Country of Origin: U.S.A
Language: English


Credits
Arranger: Ferdinand Rudolph von Grofe
Cast: Walter Brennan
Performer: Eddie Lang
Joe Venuti
Bing Crosby
Paul Whiteman Orchestra
Producer: Laemmle, Sr, Carl
Production company: Universal Pictures Corporation
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vitaphone

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostWed Nov 16, 2016 5:46 am

I highly recommend the just-released book on the making and restoration of KING OF JAZZ by James Layton and David Pierce, available here:



It goes into tremendous detail about the many film sources and the actual restoration process. To clarify, none of the disks came from Australia as there were a pristine set in the US as well as many other disks for individual reels. Nitrate soundtrack was also available to Universal. The 16mm print referred to in this string was the 1933 reissue and as the book notes in great detail, there were many differences (cuts AND additions) between the 1930 and 1933 versions.

I cannot recommend the new book highly enough. And it's as luxurious as the authors' DAWN OF TECHNICOLOR!
Last edited by silentfilm on Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Embedded YouTube link
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dede

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostWed Nov 16, 2016 8:16 pm

vitaphone wrote:I highly recommend the just-released book on the making and restoration of KING OF JAZZ by James Layton and David Pierce, available here:



It goes into tremendous detail about the many film sources and the actual restoration process. To clarify, none of the disks came from Australia as there were a pristine set in the US as well as many other disks for individual reels. Nitrate soundtrack was also available to Universal. The 16mm print referred to in this string was the 1933 reissue and as the book notes in great detail, there were many differences (cuts AND additions) between the 1930 and 1933 versions.

I cannot recommend the new book highly enough. And it's as luxurious as the authors' DAWN OF TECHNICOLOR!


I have the book, it's amazing. I know the disks didn't come from Australia but do you think the ones listed on the NFSA site are Vitaphone disks? It doesn't state it specifically but I thought they might be.
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vitaphone

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostWed Nov 16, 2016 9:24 pm

Yes, they are Vitaphone type soundtrack disks.
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Changsham

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostThu Nov 17, 2016 1:45 am

Donald Binks wrote:
Changsham wrote:
Thanks. Booked my tickets today for the Boxing Day showing.


I too am in the process of organising my booking for the 1.30pm performance on Boxing Day. Should you run into me, please come up and say hello!

If you are still sporting that moustache I will find you easily.
Cheers.
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moviepas

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostThu Nov 17, 2016 4:00 pm

Seems like the discs might have been donated to the NFSA. A search brings this up.

The NFSA for some years has repatriated non-Australian material so it is strange they still have these there. It does look like these are the ones. A few years back I was in contact with a woman at the Melbourne office of the NFSA whose boss was Ken Berryman who founded that office as far as I know, She had been at the ABC working on archives previously she told me(Mayanne Doyle). I had been supplying them with Australian film material neither they nor the ABC did not have of some early TV shows with Evie Hayes and Annette Kluger along with Wm Clauson. Also a differently edited 35mm print a 1933 Kelly Gang film. These came from an estate and had been stored in rooms behind a pair of disused shops in St Arnaud by an eccentric collector from Mt Waverly who died Dec 2002 and I had to go and see the estate with a beneficiary who was also a film and sound buff. Lucky the 35mm had not started to get sticky on the way to oblivion taking into account the humid dusty town long ways from Melbourne. Of all the 35mm nitrate I saw none was sticky or dust and no 16mm seemed to be effected by nitrate gases but I suspect I did smell some vinegar in the rooms.

Years ago I did notify Vitaphone re the aforesaid discs but never get a reply so I don't know if they followed it up.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostThu Nov 17, 2016 5:34 pm

To recap, the Australian disks at NFSA were already known but not required for the KOJ restoration, as a full set of pristine disks and a number of others already existed in the United States. Nitrate optical was also used for the restoration.
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David Alp

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostSat Nov 19, 2016 3:47 pm

I am confused because on page 231 of the new "King Of Jazz" book, (chapter 10 -- "Universals 2016 Restoration) it quite clearly states the following..

Quote: "[And] Paul Whiteman's music is clearer than ever, sourced from the original soundtrack negative."

How much of the film was restored utilizing the pristine U.S Vitaphone discs?
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostSat Nov 19, 2016 4:12 pm

As much of the negative track as possible was used and when better the portions of the disks were used. Such restorations often use multiple sources.
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David Alp

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostSat Nov 19, 2016 5:24 pm

vitaphone wrote:As much of the negative track as possible was used and when better the portions of the disks were used. Such restorations often use multiple sources.


So which would "sound" better to a 2016 audience? I.e which would be better to use? A pristine Vitaphone Record, that has only been played once, (or maybe even never?), Or would the optical "Negative Track" sound better?

(I'm a big Vitaphone fan, and follow your interesting YouTube Skype discussions avidly, especially the one about the restoration of Al Jolson's "A Plantation Act" [1926], so I'm wondering if the KOJ Vitaphone discs would have sounded better?)

On a different note, I was alerted to a black and white Carl Laemmle/Walter Lantz cartoon (via the new "The King Of Jazz" book by James Layton and David Pierce) entitled "My Pal Paul" (1930) which features "Oswald The Lucky Rabbit" and Mr. Paul Whiteman himself. All of the music contained in said cartoon is also featured in the Universal Technicolor film.

Fans of KOJ will especially enjoy the soundtrack to this [new to my eyes and ears] cartoon.

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostSun Nov 20, 2016 7:01 am

Watching cartoon Paul Whiteman attempt to lynch Oswald the Lucky Rabbit is....well, weird doesn't begin to cover it.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostSun Nov 20, 2016 7:01 am

Changsham wrote:
Donald Binks wrote:
Changsham wrote:
Thanks. Booked my tickets today for the Boxing Day showing.


I too am in the process of organising my booking for the 1.30pm performance on Boxing Day. Should you run into me, please come up and say hello!

If you are still sporting that moustache I will find you easily.

If anyone hears of a Perth screening, please let me know!
Twinkletoes wrote:Oh, ya big blister!
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dede

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostSun Nov 20, 2016 6:01 pm

I too am in the process of organising my booking for the 1.30pm performance on Boxing Day. Should you run into me, please come up and say hello![/quote]
If you are still sporting that moustache I will find you easily.[/quote]
If anyone hears of a Perth screening, please let me know![/quote]

Just ACMI at this stage, it's being shown under "Festival" conditions meaning that it doesn't need to be classified. If anyone else wants to show it they'd have to stump up about $2000 to get the censorship classification.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostSun Nov 20, 2016 7:25 pm

vitaphone wrote:As much of the negative track as possible was used and when better the portions of the disks were used. Such restorations often use multiple sources.


Sorry to contradict Ron, but the final sound restoration on King of Jazz was completed entirely from two track negative sources, not sound discs. The majority of the sound was mastered from the original 1930 soundtrack negative, with Jacques Cartier's voodoo drum dance coming from the 1933 soundtrack negative (the 1930 negative for this scene had distortion). As the Vitaphone sound discs are copies of the original track negative, they are generally of slightly lesser quality.

Ron is correct that several sets of Vitaphone discs were consulted as part of NBCUniversal's restoration.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostMon Nov 21, 2016 12:42 pm

That Oswald Rabbit cartoon would make a dandy extra on a KOJ blu-ray release - if we should get one. Fingers crossed!!
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dede

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostTue Nov 22, 2016 10:26 pm

ACMI in Melbourne will have copies of the King of Jazz book available for purchase in their book shop during the King of Jazz screenings.
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David Alp

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostThu Nov 24, 2016 1:47 am

ajabrams wrote:That Oswald Rabbit cartoon would make a dandy extra on a KOJ blu-ray release - if we should get one. Fingers crossed!!


Shush!!! You'll jinx it!!!! That's the reason I didn't say that (even though it was on the tip of my tongue). :wink:
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David Alp

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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostSat Dec 24, 2016 6:27 pm

As per my previous post attendant to the "My Pal Paul" (1930) cartoon, (which featured a lot of the music from "King Of Jazz"); thanks to James Layton, and David Pierce's book "The Making Of King Of Jazz" I have now been alerted to another 1930 cartoon, called "[Oswald The Lucky Rabbit In] Africa" which actually features some of the original footage and animation from "A Fable In Jazz" (the cartoon from "King Of Jazz").

The cartoon is, once again, a Universal Pictures production, - by Walter Lantz and Bill Nolan, presented by Carl Laemmle. And is shot in black and white. The musical score is by James Dietrich. The animation is by Fred Avery amongst others.

The animation of the running-lion which had previously been seen in the Technicolor "King Of Jazz" appears at 1:06 to 1:13 [on the YouTube clip below]. Then -- more re-cycled animation can be found at 1:28 to 1:31. Also at 3:49 to 3:57 (the "Egyptian dance" bit), and then I think the rest of the cartoon is "new", (as in not recycled from KOJ). But it's interesting to watch how they recycled material back then.


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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostMon Jan 09, 2017 8:10 pm

My understanding was that all contributors to the restoration of the film would receive a copy of the new book. Is that correct?
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostTue Jan 10, 2017 6:55 am

Hi busby, no that is not true and was never suggested., The costly restoration of KING OF JAZZ was fully funded by Universal, not by any outsiders. The book's author's DID offer many thank you gifts for Kickstarter support.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostFri Jan 20, 2017 5:24 am

Great news for Scottish KOJ lovers - it's getting one showing during the Glasgow Film Festival (Thursday 16th February at 3.15pm)! Booking opens on Monday - I will be there!
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostFri Jan 20, 2017 6:02 am

siriami wrote:Great news for Scottish KOJ lovers - it's getting one showing during the Glasgow Film Festival (Thursday 16th February at 3.15pm)! Booking opens on Monday - I will be there!



Good to hear. Spread the word, it's a film best appreciated on the big screen.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostFri Jan 20, 2017 5:40 pm

Sorry if I'm changeging subject a little bit. Fantasia 1940 was the first multi channel sound film made, with six channels, called Fantasound. IT was original recorded opticaly in sound negatives.

But after the arrive magnetic tape era the negatives was transfered to tapes and, somehow, they lost the sound negatives.

Today the film was restored from ogirinal picture camera negative, for image, but the sound was restored from the magnetic tapes tracks and not from track negatives. They said that it would sound better today if they could find the original soundtrack negatives.

I don't understant. Magnetic tapes have much better frequency than negative opticval tracks from 1941. The loss from copying from negatives to magnetic tapes would not be relevant, I supose. Unless the devices used to read optical tracks, when the magnetic tapes was recorded, wasn't very good compared to today.

I would like someone with technical information in this matter could bring some light.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostSat Jan 21, 2017 1:42 pm

As I understand it, the magnetic track wasn't a direct transfer of each of the six separate tracks... There was a real time stereo mix performed by one of the last surviving Fantasound mixers, and a stereo mag master struck of that. If they had separate stems on all the audio, they could remix it using modern technology and get much better results. But those elements weren't saved because Fantasound had already become an obsolete format and they were trying to salvage what they could by striking a stereo master for the film.

Fantasound was designed to be mixed live by a sound engineer in the theater. The film only was presented in Fantasound in roadshow screenings because of the cost and complexity of the process. Most people at the time saw Fantasia in regular old mono, which is actually a better mix than the stereo one.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 4:47 pm

I'm annoyed that I only found out this was going to be playing at the Wisconsin Film Festival after the tickets were all sold out.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 6:36 pm

Digital projection or chemical film projection ?

We are in 21 century and our technology it's still not up to, since optical 35mm color film projection have color saturation limitations, and digital projections have mostly limited dynamics range.

And even today lab work, going rom câmera negative, >> interpostive>>internegative>>print, it's not very good. Interpositives and internegative most times are not well made, not using the best printer system or top best film stocks, and as result a color print 35mm have poor shadows and not great sharpness.

And the digital TVs have faded images or poor shadows and highlights if we increase contrast, and the broadcast TV have lot's of image artefacts. Digital Age...

Mark Zimmer wrote:I'm annoyed that I only found out this was going to be playing at the Wisconsin Film Festival after the tickets were all sold out.
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 5:02 am

As with pretty much every recent feature restoration (WHY BE GOOD?, SYNTHETIC SIN, etc.) the projection is digital (DCP).
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Re: The restored version of King of jazz

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 6:40 am

I had the chance to see this in Cincinnati (for $25 a ticket!) or in Columbus for $8. However, they booked it at Christmastime! Who has time to do anything except Christmas related activities in December? Certainly not me. I want to see it but I missed my chance so I hope it eventually comes to blu-ray.
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