Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

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Nonsuch

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Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSun Jun 28, 2015 10:54 am

Hi, I made the most amazing find of silent films at my local dump last week. I've contacted the BFI about them, but while I'm waiting for a solution to be sorted out at that end I'm trying to find out as much out about the films as possible. I found five 35mm nitrate films in an old paint tin at my local dump (along with some 16mm films, also interesting), and most of them seem to be in (relatively) good condition given that they appear to be from the 1910s/1920s. Worryingly, however, several of them are showing signs of degradation, and one appears to be almost completely gone (i.e. the ink is all wet and the image is practically gone). We took these caps using an old slide scanner intended for still images, and as you'll see we managed to get pretty good results. Do any of these seem familiar at all/can any of you experts shed any further light? Since the films are so very old, there's a good chance some of them might be unique/missing films.

I'll post the caps from each film reel separately to give you a sense for the films' content:

1. Reel marked 'The Stag Hunt' (late 1900s/early 1910s?)

There is some writing along the sides of the film reading - 'AMBROSIO TORINO' and 'EXHIBITION INTERNITENEN FRANCE & SWISS EXC. BELGIUM'.

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2. Unmarked reel with establishing shot of Monaco and title card mentioning 'flappers' (1920s)

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3. Unmarked reel (early 1910s, I've been told you can see the Pathe rooster in the background?)

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4. Unmarked reel (early 1910s?)

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5. Unmarked reel (early 1910s?)

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Any info/advice/expertise appreciated! I know how fragile and dangerous the films are, so have stressed the urgency of getting them to a proper storage facility to my BFI contact. I just hope they can sort out transport for the films quickly.
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rogerskarsten

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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSun Jun 28, 2015 11:54 am

Number 2 is THE CARDBOARD LOVER (1928), starring Marion Davies.

~Roger
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Spiny Norman

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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSun Jun 28, 2015 1:48 pm

Well spotted!
You've contacted the BFI so make sure they get them. They may not immediately appear enthusiastic, but don't give up.

Ambrosio from Turin made lots of pictures in the 1910s. Sometimes costume drama was chosen to lend respectability to that new-fangled picture-house. Someone will be able to identify it before long...

No Doctor Who among the 16mm then? No cans labelled "BBC Enterprise - POWER OF THE DALEKS"?
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doctor-kiss

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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSun Jun 28, 2015 2:03 pm

In reel #3, the shiny thing on the wall immediately above the dresser is indeed the Pathé rooster.

Reel #4 also contains a company logo (beside the leg of the man carrying the film cans), being one of the early renditions of the IMP (Independent Moving Pictures Co. of America) logo that is generally seen in this particular form in productions dating from 1910 or 1911. The man carrying the film cans might possibly be IMP's ubiquitous leading man King Baggot, though it's hard to be certain from these two images.

Ambrosio and Pathé shorts (both of which likewise look to date from roughly 1910/11) come to light far more often than IMPs of this period, so reel #4 may ultimately be the title that proves to be of greatest interest here.
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSun Jun 28, 2015 4:33 pm

I can't identify the original French title for the Pathé short (reel #3) at the moment, but it was released in the U.S. on September 29th, 1909, as JANE IS UNWILLING TO WORK.

Here's the synopsis from The Film Index vol. IV, no.40 (Oct. 2nd, 1909), p.8:

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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 2:13 am

doctor-kiss wrote:I can't identify the original French title for the Pathé short (reel #3) at the moment, but it was released in the U.S. on September 29th, 1909, as JANE IS UNWILLING TO WORK.

Here's the synopsis from The Film Index vol. IV, no.40 (Oct. 2nd, 1909), p.8:

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Wow, what an incredible bit of detective work! Thank you so much (to you and the other members who've contributed). That's two of the films positively ID'd now. Do you have any idea whether JANE IS UNWILLING TO WORK is considered a lost film?
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 7:17 am

Spiny Norman wrote:Well spotted!
You've contacted the BFI so make sure they get them. They may not immediately appear enthusiastic, but don't give up.

Ambrosio from Turin made lots of pictures in the 1910s. Sometimes costume drama was chosen to lend respectability to that new-fangled picture-house. Someone will be able to identify it before long...

No Doctor Who among the 16mm then? No cans labelled "BBC Enterprise - POWER OF THE DALEKS"?


Hehe, the first place I posted about this was the Doctor Who Missing Episodes FB group! Unfortunately there wasn't a Dalek's Master Plan or a Marco Polo in sight.
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostMon Jun 29, 2015 11:32 am

The woman in #5 looks like she might be Florence Lawrence.
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Wonderful find! For what it's worth, IMDb lists a 1909 Kineto film called THE STAG HUNT; no idea if it's connected to your reel (which looks gorgeous).

There's a detailed plot summary around for JANE IS UNWILLING TO WORK, which may mean it's not otherwise lost. (And no, the plot summary isn't by F. Gwynplaine MacIntyre...)

Which of the films is in the worst shape?
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSun Jul 05, 2015 5:50 am

Perhaps 'EXHIBITION INTERNITENEN FRANCE & SWISS EXC. BELGIUM' means it was shown at the 1910 Brussels International Exposition.
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSun Jul 05, 2015 6:42 am

goldenband wrote:There's a detailed plot summary around for JANE IS UNWILLING TO WORK, which may mean it's not otherwise lost.


The synopsis at IMDb is taken from the Oct. 2nd, 1909, issue of trade journal Moving Picture World, and is not therefore indicative of a surviving print. There are no archival holdings under the English-language title, although it would still be more useful to establish the original French title, which seems not entirely straightforward in this case (of the eight Pathé releases written up on that date, this is the only one that can't readily be matched to a French title).

Lamar wrote:Perhaps 'EXHIBITION INTERNITENEN FRANCE & SWISS EXC. BELGIUM' means it was shown at the 1910 Brussels International Exposition.


'EXHIBITION INTERDITE EN FRANCE EN SUISSE ET EN BELGIQUE' is a standard form found on the edges of Pathé-issued prints of the period, specifying the nations in which a film was prohibited from exhibition by a purchaser or renter due to existing distribution deals in those territories.

===

Reel #1, [THE STAG HUNT], is a section from the Ambrosio production IL GUANTO (1910), released in English-speaking territories as THE GLOVE. An incomplete copy of this survives at the BFI already, originating from the Joye Collection.

Excised frame from the BFI print, in the Turconi Collection:
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BFI viewing synopsis:
DRAMA. A courtier's love for a woman is unrequited and he is made a laughing stock. No main titles. Delorge, a courtier, arrives at court and goes to greet Conegonda the woman with whom he is in love. She does not allow him to kiss her hand. Another courtier arrives to console him. Two heralds arrive followed by the court jester and the king. The king addresses the assembled courtiers and they then follow him in procession. Conegonda scorns Delorge's offer of his hand and walks with his friend. EIN JAGDFEST. The courtiers are seen on a hunting party. At the picnic Delorge tries in vain to gain Conegonda's attention. The hunt proceeds through the forest. (331) DELORGE HAT DEN HIRSCH ERLEGT. (332) Delorge is seen triumphant over the dead stag. The rest of the hunting party arrive. (375) HULDIGUNGEN DES HOFES GEGEN DELORGE UND SPÖTTELEIEN SEITENS KUNIGUNDES. Delorge is congratulated by the king who presents him with a ring and other courtiers follow suit presenting him with posies. Conegonda goes to give him her glove but it is snatched away by the jester. (474) BRIEF DES DELORGE. The woman is next seen in her dressing room, a servant waiting to present her with a letter...[In the letter Delorge requests that Conegonda put his love to the test in any way she pleases. The court pays a visit to the king's den of lions and Conegonda sets her test by throwing her glove into the pit and daring Delorge to retrieve it. To her shock he goes into the pit and brings back the glove, throwing it in her face to show his contempt for her vanity.] (492ft). Note: Incomplete. German intertitles.

[Source: http://collections-search.bfi.org.uk/web/Details/ChoiceFilmWorks/150178660]
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSun Jul 05, 2015 11:35 pm

doctor-kiss wrote:The synopsis at IMDb is taken from the Oct. 2nd, 1909, issue of trade journal Moving Picture World, and is not therefore indicative of a surviving print.


Sorry, I should've been more precise and linked to this New York Times page with commentary by Hal Erickson, which is what I had in mind:

"This Pathe comedy is not so much a film as a shaggy-dog story. The heroine is, yes, Jane, and yes, she hates to work. Forced by her mother to sign up with an employment agency, Jane goes out of her way to make herself as unpleasant as possible, making certain that she'll be fired from every job. This "joke" is repeated two or three times before Jane finally "wins" and is allowed to remain unemployed. From the looks of things, Jane is Unwilling to Work was released on a Pathe "triple bill" with The Vendetta and Garbage of Paris. ~ Hal Erickson, Rovi"

I assume Mr. Erickson wouldn't editorialize about the film if he hadn't seen it? Looks like he's a member here, but hasn't been active in about 18 months...

Nice catch on IL GUANTO (1910)! I feel like my post (re: the IMDB listing of STAG HUNT) and your follow-up are a loose example of Cunningham's Law, and I'm fine with that. :D
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostMon Jul 06, 2015 4:34 pm

The New York Times just licensed that information from the allmovie.com website. http://www.allmovie.com/movie/jane-is-unwilling-to-work-v241826

I'll ask Hal about this one.
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostMon Jul 06, 2015 5:29 pm

I realize that you must mean "In the garbage" (Canadian) or "In the trash" (USA), but what exactly is a "skip"?
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostMon Jul 06, 2015 5:53 pm

TerryC wrote:...what exactly is a "skip"?


A dumpster. :wink:
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostTue Jul 07, 2015 4:29 pm

I would like to hear more about more details about how you found these films in the "skip". How did this happen? Where did they come from? Who put them there? Are there any more?
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostFri Jul 10, 2015 1:32 pm

That is quite an awesome find and hopefully the BFI will accept them. I cannot imagine why anyone would throw away valuable silent films as such.......
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostFri Jul 10, 2015 1:57 pm

roger P wrote:I would like to hear more about more details about how you found these films in the "skip". How did this happen? Where did they come from? Who put them there? Are there any more?


My dad and I often look around our local 'recycling centres' (or skips), as they have retail areas where reclaimed goods are sold. Dad found two 16mm reels of a 1950s corporate film and they made him investigate the selling area more thoroughly, leading him to find an old paint tin behind a shelving unit - the paint tin was filled with film reels, including all the nitrate film.

As for your other questions, I have absolutely no idea. I asked the man who worked at the recycling centre if he knew how they came to be there, but he said he hadn't even realised they were there. They were probably dug out of the skip by someone who worked there, having been dropped off anonymously by persons unknown. Dad and I are going to try and get the find in the local paper in the hope of finding out more about where the films came from, but I really want to get the films to the BFI first and perhaps talk to them about how to approach things.
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostFri Jul 10, 2015 4:52 pm

Nonsuch wrote:
roger P wrote:I would like to hear more about more details about how you found these films in the "skip". How did this happen? Where did they come from? Who put them there? Are there any more?


My dad and I often look around our local 'recycling centres' (or skips), as they have retail areas where reclaimed goods are sold. Dad found two 16mm reels of a 1950s corporate film and they made him investigate the selling area more thoroughly, leading him to find an old paint tin behind a shelving unit - the paint tin was filled with film reels, including all the nitrate film.

As for your other questions, I have absolutely no idea. I asked the man who worked at the recycling centre if he knew how they came to be there, but he said he hadn't even realised they were there. They were probably dug out of the skip by someone who worked there, having been dropped off anonymously by persons unknown. Dad and I are going to try and get the find in the local paper in the hope of finding out more about where the films came from, but I really want to get the films to the BFI first and perhaps talk to them about how to approach things.
It's possible that it may never be clear how they got there. A couple of weeks ago I saw a nearly complete Steenbeck table at the local thrift store. Not what I'd expected ever to find there!
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostWed Jul 22, 2015 11:46 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Nonsuch wrote:
roger P wrote:I would like to hear more about more details about how you found these films in the "skip". How did this happen? Where did they come from? Who put them there? Are there any more?


My dad and I often look around our local 'recycling centres' (or skips), as they have retail areas where reclaimed goods are sold. Dad found two 16mm reels of a 1950s corporate film and they made him investigate the selling area more thoroughly, leading him to find an old paint tin behind a shelving unit - the paint tin was filled with film reels, including all the nitrate film.

As for your other questions, I have absolutely no idea. I asked the man who worked at the recycling centre if he knew how they came to be there, but he said he hadn't even realised they were there. They were probably dug out of the skip by someone who worked there, having been dropped off anonymously by persons unknown. Dad and I are going to try and get the find in the local paper in the hope of finding out more about where the films came from, but I really want to get the films to the BFI first and perhaps talk to them about how to approach things.
It's possible that it may never be clear how they got there. A couple of weeks ago I saw a nearly complete Steenbeck table at the local thrift store. Not what I'd expected ever to find there!


Our local newspaper have picked up on the find now, and will be publishing a story about it. While I'm not getting my hopes up it would be marvellous if the person who threw the films sees the story in the paper - there may be more!

Also, here are some pics of the films themselves, and the paint tin they were found in:

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The BFI are finalling sending cans for storage and transport and they should be being picked up on Friday. I'm so happy and can't wait to find out more about them after the BFI takes a look!
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostFri Jul 24, 2015 3:16 pm

And the find's now in the paper! Exciting times!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... l#comments

And I'm happy to report the BFI collected the films today - they're safe at last and I'm very happy about it. I'm very excited to learn more about them once they've been examined.
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostFri Jul 24, 2015 3:40 pm

It's a wonderful weird story with a happy ending.... at least at the chapter end.

I would suspect that some major renovation was going on somewhere and these were uncovered; given the perception that nitrate will explode like nitro -- which it is related to chemically -- and the amount of regulation around handling it, the site supervisor probably decided to dump it where he wouldn't be responsible for it.

I'm glad a Nitratevillain who knew what it was and whom to contact found it. Please let us know what they are as they are identified.

Bob
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostFri Jul 24, 2015 8:24 pm

http://www.exeterexpressandecho.co.uk/Pictures-Couple-buy-incredible-collection-100/story-27477606-detail/story.html


Pictures: Couple buy incredible collection of 100-year-old silent films - from a Sidmouth skip

By Exeter Express and Echo | Posted: July 24, 2015

Jane Is Unwilling to Work

VIEW GALLERY
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An incredible collection of 100-year-old near-extinct silent films from the 'Golden Age' of cinema have been found - in a Sidmouth tip.

The historic reels of film dating back to 1909 were discovered in a dumped shelving unit at a recycling centre.

Film buffs Mike Grant, 56, and daughter, Rachael, 26, were stunned when they came across the historic reels.

Their interest was sparked after spotting two 16mm film reels placed next to a 1950s paint tin, which was wedged behind a cupboard.

They found a further ten old 35mm and 16mm films dating back to 1909, including a copy of The Cardboard Lover, one of just two remaining copies in the world.

The MGM movie starred Marion Davies, a famous actress of the time.

The rest are a variety of feature films and shorts, ranging roughly from 1909 to 1913, and include films from France, Italy, India, America and the UK.

Michael approached the staff at the recycling centre in Sidmouth, Devon, to purchase the tin and its contents, and was amazed when they only wanted £10.

They are now going to donate them to the British Film Institute.

Michael, a factory worker from Chard, Somerset, said: "I have always been interested in old film and television, and regularly go to look in the recycling centre, when I'm in the area. We couldn't believe what we found.

"It was a real find, it's the biggest thing I have ever found, not the sort of thing you expect to see - especially at a tip.

"You hear about missing Doctor Who episodes and that sort of thing, but this is much rarer, and much older.

"The films come from all over the world, including France, Italy, India, American and one from the UK.

"It's a mystery where they came from, we are trying to piece together who they belonged to.

"There are a lot of retired people in that area, so I presume that someone was having a house clearance and skipped the whole lot.

"It's a bit sad to think that there might have been others that we missed, and they ended up in land fill, but at least we found some of them.

"We only paid £10 for them, but on the private market it would be difficult to guess what they would be worth, it could be quite a bit of money."

After buying the collection they took them home, and began researching exactly what they had found.

Only some of the tins were labelled, so the identity of some remains a mystery, but with the help of internet forums they have been able to identify others.

Included in the collection are an Italian film called Il Guanto from 1910, a French film called Jane is Unwilling to Work, from 1909, and one reel of the 1928 film The Cardboard Lover.

Intrigued by The Cardboard Lover, Rachael, a copywriter who lives with dad Michael and mum, Marina, 54, carried out further research.

She discovered that only one other copy remained, in the Library of Congress in Washington, but that copy was heavily damaged.

After further research the family have been informed that their version is in a better condition.

Rachael said: "The Cardboard Lover is a great find, but we only have one reel of that film.

"It was a feature film, so would have come on six or seven reels.

"It's a bit of a shame we don't have all them all, but with a find like that you don't get upset you don't have them all, you are glad you even got one.

"When we found them we couldn't believe what we were seeing.

"It's difficult to express how rare it is to find 35mm films, because the films are made of nitrate they are highly unstable, and you often hear about whole archives burning to the ground, because nitrate film is self-combustible.

"Its miraculous that they survived. Some of the films are in great condition, but some aren't so good. One of them has decomposed almost completely, which is a shame.

"But still, it's the find of a lifetime. We have contacted the British Film Institute, and will be loaning the films to them.

"One of them was an American film from 1910, by Independent Motion Pictures, we could tell because the IMP logo was visible in the film.

"It has been speculated that the actors in the film and King Biggott and Florence Lawrence, one of the first stars of film to be promoted as a star in her own right.

"The BFI archive is the best place for them, they have a specialist archive for Nitrate film, so they will be quite safe.

"We are not asking for any money, our main priority is to see the films looked after and properly identified.

"I would also love to see the films, we don't have the equipment to play them, it would be great if the BFI could invited us round to watch the films one day."
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSat Jul 25, 2015 1:20 am

To be fair, now and then similar finds are on ebay. Like "Some films we found under the roof, start price, a few dollars.", that sort of thing.
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSat Jul 25, 2015 6:40 am

Spiny Norman wrote:To be fair, now and then similar finds are on ebay. Like "Some films we found under the roof, start price, a few dollars.", that sort of thing.


But generally not as old or seemingly complete. Still, it is astonishing what has turned up in only the last few years
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Re: Amazing find of old nitrate films in a skip

PostSat Jul 25, 2015 4:17 pm

This is purely my speculation, but I also suspect that the internet has helped people recognise the value of film they may otherwise have thrown out, and get it into the hands of people who can help them identify it. What might have taken dozens of letters or phone calls 20 years ago can now be covered with a few emails and Google searches.
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Incredible Film Find

PostThu Sep 24, 2015 4:50 pm

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Re: Incredible Film Find

PostThu Sep 24, 2015 7:23 pm

I just imagine, with a could in my stomach, how much films are not really founded because, instead of these nice guys, some ignorant person saw a can, saw it was a film reel inside, but was just stupid and throw away thinking it was nothing, or just some old thing.

Indeed stupid people can destroy films, junk in the garbage, burning...


Anyway I believe this News was already posted somewhere a couple months ago.
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