LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

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Hamilton's Grandson

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LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSat Jan 21, 2017 9:06 pm

If LOC has 4 out of 8 reels of The Dove (1927), what is the process to contact LOC to see if these reels will be preserved to digital medium or is it possible to see if the 4 reels contain any frames with a cast member? Is it a financial process or depends on public interest or ????

I have a few stills of Mark Hamilton who I think played a prisoner in the film and I am not sure if they are from The Dove or another unknown film around 1927. Stills are hard to match to description of films if footage is lost.
Last edited by Hamilton's Grandson on Fri May 12, 2017 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSat Jan 21, 2017 9:25 pm

Hamilton's Grandson wrote:If LOC has 4 out of 7 reels of The Dove (1927), what is the process to contact LOC to see if these reels will be preserved to digital medium or is it possible to see if the 4 reels contain any frames with a cast member? Is it a financial process or depends on public interest or ????

I have a few stills of Mark Hamilton who I think played a prisoner in the film and I am not sure if they are from The Dove or another unknown film around 1927. Stills are hard to match to description of films if footage is lost.


If the video is viewable, I believe you can go there and watch the film on premises. All the major film archives (so far as I know) provide this service (for a fee). Not sure if LOC charges for on-site viewing since I've never been there.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun Jan 22, 2017 1:02 pm

Film viewing can be arranged for free at the LoC's Motion Picture Reading Room in Washington DC, as long as there is a safety film viewing copy available. You can contact the MPRR via their site to find out if they have one, or if their holdings are only on nitrate or a fine-grain and therefore not available for viewing at the Reading Room.

If you can't get to DC, you should be able to order a digital copy of the film, even if LoC's holdings are nitrate or a safety film preservation neg (which both Ed and I have done recently for our respective M. Davies projects), although THE DOVE may have some donor restrictions (Cohen Media) since it is a Norma Talmadge title.

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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostMon Jan 23, 2017 10:07 pm

Hi Ed and Ben,

Thanks for the great information. I was able to email LOC and the reply was good news. LOC has reels 1,3,4, and 8 form The Dove (1927) on a 35 mm viewable reference print from the Raymond Rohauer collection. Hard to know if the reels match the 4 stills I have of Mark Hamilton the film, but plan on investigating that.

I have a conference in June in DC so I am looking forward to viewing the film reels at their reading room by appointment.

Regards,
Dana
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostMon Jan 23, 2017 10:37 pm

Fantastic! BTW, the LoC film identification workshop "Mostly Lost" is June 15-17.

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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 10:11 pm

Any access beyond the free viewing on Capitol Hill would require a clearance from Cohen Media.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 10:29 pm

Bor

Thanks for the details regarding Cohen media.

Should be able to view the 35 mm reference print the day I am there according to LOC.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostTue Jan 24, 2017 10:31 pm

Great news!

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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostWed Jan 25, 2017 6:42 am

Yes I wondered about Cohen group's donor restrictions and if they would apply to on-site viewing.

Still surprises me they haven't clamped down on Talmadge movies sold thru Ebay etc.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostFri May 12, 2017 11:45 am

Just booked my viewing appointment in reading room at LOC to view the 4 of 8 reels of The Dove 1927 during the week of the 20th of June. Hope there is enough material their to get some idea of the plot, etc. Too bad I won't be there the week before for the LOC Film ID workshop. Sounds like fun. It's probably better not to have a loud mouth like me attend that event.....or from what I have read probably acceptable to scream out loudly ideas to ID these forgotten films. lol
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun May 14, 2017 8:20 am

Hi Hamilton's Grandson, just to keep people caught up. All of the films are actually stored at the LOC's Culpepper facility now whereas they were on the Capitol Hill main premises (Madison Building). So yeah there would be a pre-plan for any viewing and the LOC stipulates a scholarly research when wanting to view the films. The Motion Picture Reading Room(MPRR) is on the third floor of the James Madison Building of the LOC and more than likely you'd view it right around the corner(same floor) in the Mary Pickford Theatre if I'm not mistaken. Sounds to be a great project.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun May 14, 2017 8:47 am

I've viewed films at the MPRR several times and can tell you -- Some of the films are stored at the Reading Room, usually titles that are 16mm. The viewings are not done in the Pickford theatre. They are all done on flatbed film viewers (Steenbeck or KEM, I forget which), threaded for you and supervised by staff. If the title is one that has already been digitized you screen the film on a monitor in the reading room. You may not take photos/videos off the screen.

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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun May 14, 2017 9:08 am

Thanks Sepiatone and Ben for the information.

The viewing is supervised with a librarian and LOC is about 15 minute taxi ride from hotel where i will be attending an unrelated conference all week. I still have @ 30 unidentified stills from Mark Hamilton studio stills and I think 3-4 are from this film. Sounds like a long way to travel (west coast to DC) just to view 4 out of 8 reels, but since I will be in town anyway it is a good opportunity. I appreciate very much the information and will post to share experience once I get back.

Dana
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun May 14, 2017 10:24 am

Norma Talmadge is usually well-received at audience screenings nowadays. She seems remarkably contemporary.
Last edited by David Menefee on Mon May 15, 2017 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun May 14, 2017 10:33 am

David Menefee wrote:It's already been restored by Kevin Brownlow. I saw him screening it in 35mm at the San Francisco Silent Film Festival back in 2010. The audience loved it.


That was Woman Disputed, which was excellent, i thought.

Hamilton's Grandson: I did watch this film several years ago at LOC. I'm hoping you will report back with your impressions, and i only know one other person besides myself that's seen it. If he's not in any of the scenes in this print, there is a reel of censorship cuts in the archive in Stockholm, in case you are ever there. I've seen that also, and it consists mostly of violent scenes, like an execution and poisoning, but it's possible that there are some prison scenes there, i'd have to consult my notes. Anna May Wong's brief scenes are there too. The Cohen Group i assume has material on the two reels missing at LOC but they are very poor quality.

Good luck!
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun May 14, 2017 10:35 am

There's one more reel than what exists at LOC. The LOC footage was run at the Pordenone Silent Film Festival this past October (it was gorgeous), as part of their William Cameron Menzies series. In his program notes curator James Curtis mentioned that there is also one reel of censorship outtakes from the film at the Svenska Filminstiutet.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun May 14, 2017 10:38 am

Steve Massa wrote:There's one more reel than what exists at LOC. The LOC footage was run at the Pordenone Silent Film Festival this past October (it was gorgeous), as part of their William Cameron Menzies series. In his program notes curator James Curtis mentioned that there is also one reel of censorship outtakes from the film at the Svenska Filminstiutet.


Ah, i didn't realize it had run there, maybe someone who saw it can speak up. I remember that the photography and art direction were outstanding.

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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun May 14, 2017 11:34 am

Didn't John Hampton also have a partial print, which would now be at UCLA?
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostSun May 14, 2017 11:48 am

I did not realize UCLA has a partial print. Their catalog says 2 of 2 reels (2658 ft) on 16 mm safety film as listed June 2011.

I am also at UCLA in late August to view The Man From Red Gulch 1925 on VHS and hopefully talk to them about the one reel of Microscope Mystery 1916 that they have.

Perhaps with several reels still in existence for "The Dove", a nearly full film can be put together someday soon. The stills look like it was an interesting and entertaining film. Definitely will share what I find out with this blog once I complete the visit to LOC.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostTue May 16, 2017 10:53 pm

Thanks Greta for the great information.

I did see your 2006 notes from your LOC viewing of The Dove (don't recall the website) and will have to see if any of the reels match the stills that I have from the film. I think your notes also mentioned that 2 of the reels of the 4 that LOC have are in poorer condition. Don't know if UCLA will allow viewing of the 2 reels that they have or if these are the exact same as the 2 reels of censored scenes from the film footage that exists in Sweden.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostThu May 18, 2017 2:31 pm

BenModel wrote:I've viewed films at the MPRR several times and can tell you -- Some of the films are stored at the Reading Room, usually titles that are 16mm. The viewings are not done in the Pickford theatre. They are all done on flatbed film viewers (Steenbeck or KEM, I forget which), threaded for you and supervised by staff. If the title is one that has already been digitized you screen the film on a monitor in the reading room. You may not take photos/videos off the screen.

Ben

cool, thanks for clearing this up. I believed everything went to Culpepper at this late date.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostThu May 18, 2017 7:13 pm

Mostly everything is at Packard Campus, but there are a certain amount of titles at the MPRR. :)

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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostThu Jun 22, 2017 8:51 pm

I was able to visit today the Moving Image Section Department at the Library of Congress (James Madison Building 101) 6th floor blue section. I arrived in the am and had two large reels of The Dove 1927 waiting for me in the viewing room. I was able to watch on Steenbeck Flat viewer all 4 reels that they had sent from Culpepper ahead of my visit to LOC to view. The viewer was well demonstrated by staff who were very helpful. They gave me a pager whenever I needed assistance or if the reels needed to be changed. Was able to view Reel 1, 3, 4, and 8 (of 9 original reels according to AFI). Reel 1 , 4 , and 8 were in beautiful condition with the first half of reel 3 with noticeable nitrate deterioration from the original print at time of transfer to current print. The set and art direction was good which you could tell why Menzies won Academy Award for this film. It was a great experience. I hope those that have not been there get the chance to visit. Hard to predict if there is enough material or public interest to bring this film permanently out of the nitrate vault.

Thanks to all for the advice leading up to my visit. Unfortunately, no footage showed my grandfather so next step Is UCLA in August to see if the censored reels have footage of him.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostFri Jul 21, 2017 7:41 pm

I spoke to Steve Hill at UCLA today regarding the two reels that UCLA has from the Dove 1927. He is looking into the exact footage they have, but may be a 16 mm copy of what may have been copied from another 16 mm intended for Home video years ago. May be a duplicate of footage that I viewed at LOC in June. Maybe I will get to view what they have some day, but as Greta said the footage that may show prison scenes may be on the 1 reel that Stockholm archives have.

Thanks again for the help.

Dana
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 9:38 am

Hopefully this film can be pieced back together from all existing elements someday, with stills & text to cover the gaps. I'd love to see it, and would donate toward such a project. Cohen permitting, of course.
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Re: LOC Process to restore the film The Dove (1927)

PostMon Jul 24, 2017 10:39 am

I am trying to find out what footage exactly is on the 2 UCLA reels. I will ask again to see if their archives at Santa Clarita can view it on their end and see if this is footage from the 4 reels that LOC has or different since the UCLA reels are on 16 mm safety film recorded from a 16 mm home movie version of the Dove nearly 50 years ago.
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