Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921 FUNDED!

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mwalls

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 5:42 pm

I just pledged.

Question about the description. It said that some of the intertitles were too short, or were missing, and that new ones have been added to the end. For the ones that were too short, do they still exist in their normal place in the film but have had new, longer ones added and spliced to the end of the film? For the ones that did not exist but new ones added, are they also just spliced onto the end of the film? In both events, how would they end up back in their proper place if the film is just being copied?

Thanks,
Matthew
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drednm

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 6:22 pm

Yes Bob..... just a copy of the master disk from LOC..... I'll leave the dressing up to someone else. With such a small investment, I was hoping one of the commercial DVD firms might, repeat might, gussy it up for a commercial release ... although that's not my primary reason for doing this.
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Matthew White

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 8:24 pm

I'm in!

Congratulations on getting this project started! :D
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drednm

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 8:33 pm

mwalls wrote:I just pledged.

Question about the description. It said that some of the intertitles were too short, or were missing, and that new ones have been added to the end. For the ones that were too short, do they still exist in their normal place in the film but have had new, longer ones added and spliced to the end of the film? For the ones that did not exist but new ones added, are they also just spliced onto the end of the film? In both events, how would they end up back in their proper place if the film is just being copied?

Thanks,
Matthew


I don't know. Maybe someone who has seen this film at a festival can say since this print is the same one.....
Ed Lorusso
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drednm

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 8:43 pm

Update: we've passed the 25% mark.

Thanks to all.
Ed Lorusso
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 8:48 pm

drednm wrote:Yes Bob..... just a copy of the master disk from LOC..... I'll leave the dressing up to someone else. With such a small investment, I was hoping one of the commercial DVD firms might, repeat might, gussy it up for a commercial release ... although that's not my primary reason for doing this.


Ed: A commercial DVD outfit would still need to access the original (QuickTime ProRes HD) file and not work from one of the DVDs you'll be sending out. Also, make sure you specify a frame rate when you place the order. I know of a couple people who've ordered silents and got the DVD and found the file had been speed-adjusted to 18 fps.

Bob: LoC's film transfer rate page tells customers to expect a 6-8 week turnaround time on an order. It takes me about 6 months to turn out one of my releases because there's artwork, scoring, editing, titling, authoring, press/promo...and all this in the cracks around my performing schedule (and in the most recent case, a govt shut-down).

Ben
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drednm

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostWed Jan 08, 2014 8:54 pm

Thanks for that info, Ben.

Last film I got from LOC took only 4 weeks after they received the paperwork, payment, etc.

And again, I am providing a copy of the disk I get from LOC. I am not equipped to add all the niceties of a commercial release.
Ed Lorusso
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 5:21 am

Ed,

I was just checking out the link that Ben provided for the Library of Congress Film Transfer Rates particulars. I had no idea it was so extensive! I was wondering, if you are going to so much trouble to liberate this film from the archive why not get the transfer done in HD rather than as a compressed standard-definition DVD file? This is not meant to be a criticism (I'm really excited to see this film in any format and thank you for your time). I was just wondering if there was a specific reason you wanted to get the transfer done as a DVD. :)
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 6:26 am

Matthew I'll look into that. You have to remember I haven't "upgraded" to HD or BLU; I still toil in the realm of DVD. I can certainly ask my contacts at LOC what they think. We might as well get the best quality video we can..... Thanks
Ed Lorusso
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 7:28 am

I'm in, too. Great idea!
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 8:56 am

I've been through all this with the "Musty Suffer" project already, so what I know about the process is…

Everything is digitized in HD at 24p in JPEG2000 format. That master file is then down-converted to DVD, whatever file format you've ordered or output to tape (HDCAM or digibeta), and speed-adjustment (if any) is introduced at this point.

The DVD you will get will be made off the HD file, and will look the same as the DVD that you'd have to make from the HD quicktime ProRes file.

The difference is that If you order the HD QT ProRes file you're incurring the hard-drive fee, but it does give you the possibility of working with a file in FCP or Premiere if you're planning on doing any sort of editing, speed-adjustment or image tweaking.

Ben
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mwalls

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 8:57 am

Ed,

I re-read my post earlier about the intertitles at the end of the film, and I am concerned it came off a little forward. That was certainly not my intent. Probably too much coffee and please accept my apologies.

I was actually very curious about the intertitles that were placed at the end of the film. I had never heard of this practice. The way I read it, some of the intertitles were too short and some non-existent. But that longer ones were tagged onto the end of the film to augment the short ones, and that others have been created and placed there.

For the ones that were too short, I wonder who created longer ones to put at the end of the film for later splicing back into the reel. And does that resplicing occur before the film is transferred to DVD, or can we move things around once on DVD?

For the intertitles that are missing, I thought I read that ones have been created. Suppose, and not just for this film but using this film as an example, if intertitles are missing how would anyone know? I have watched silent films and there were places that I thought an intertitle would pop up but none did. In others, perhaps an intertitle was created where one had not originally existed. So for Enchantment, I suppose there is no clear "roadmap" for intertitles. Was historical records kept of intertitles, or do people doing restoration use their best guess when reinserting intertitles or creating new ones?

Thanks,
Matthew
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 9:19 am

mwalls wrote:For the intertitles that are missing, I thought I read that ones have been created. Suppose, and not just for this film but using this film as an example, if intertitles are missing how would anyone know? I have watched silent films and there were places that I thought an intertitle would pop up but none did. In others, perhaps an intertitle was created where one had not originally existed. So for Enchantment, I suppose there is no clear "roadmap" for intertitles. Was historical records kept of intertitles, or do people doing restoration use their best guess when reinserting intertitles or creating new ones?


The best source for establishing the number, order and text of the subtitles is the film's cutting continuity. It will also include information on any tints that were present in the original prints (or, in applicable cases, the length of Technicolor sequences and other inserts).

Granted, cutting continuities haven't always survived to the present day. In such cases (as with Stark Love, mentioned a few months ago), we're stuck with translations of the titles that came from a foreign print, or we have have to make educated guesses as to where titles were placed. It may be useful to check on what kind of paperwork survives for Cosmopolitan's output.

-HA
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Matthew White

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 10:11 am

Thanks for the detailed info Ben.

If we end up going the HD route maybe we could all kick in a few extra bucks to cover the hard drive fee.

Like you said Ed, might as well get the best quality we can get. This is especially the case if we are getting "raw" data that can be manipulated in Final Cut Pro or Premiere.
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 11:10 am

I'm going to contact Jerry at LOC today and find out exactly what the story is. The note from the librarian says her info is based on the original version that was used for the restored version and that the "lab" would decide what elements would be used. Maybe the restored version, the one likely loaned out to various venues, is copyrighted.

But from what Ben M. noted above, we probably have our answer ... unless there is a pressing reason for getting the original HD copy.
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 12:52 pm

If you think I was confused before..... Here's the response from Jerry:

Yes, you can obtain a HD transfer and since we do not offer a blu-ray format the files would have to be downloaded to a external hard drive or to a HDCAM videotape. The DVD-R copy I priced for you was for a silent speed transfer (113 minutes) but if you want a HD copy the silent film will be preserved at sound speed (75 minutes) so the price will be less than originally quoted.

A HD (1080p, 24fps) ProRes 4:2:2 (MOV wrapper) standard or HQ transfer downloaded to 500GB hard drive will run $1,048.50, shipping included.

A HDCAM cassette - 94 minutes stock videotape copy will run $1,032.50, shipping included.

For your question concerning the version you would be receiving from us, I have copied this email to Rosemary Hanes and when she returns to work next week, she should be able to identify the specific copy she had in mind.

ANY IDEAS?
Ed Lorusso
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 12:57 pm

Ed,

:? How do I contribute? I was ready to pledge $22.00. I would pledge more, but I only have $35.00 left in my Paypal account at the moment. I assumed you were using Paypal for this? If not, what is the method?
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 1:10 pm

Jeff.... they don't accept Paypal at this time. US payments go through Amazon (which is why they collect 5% if the project funds), so I assume any payment methods Amazon accepts are ok: credit card, debit card, bank account. But maybe they only accept credit cards.... I couldn't find anything very specific on this.

I'll send you an email. I'm sure we can get around this.
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 1:16 pm

Ed,

:? Amazon is linked to my checking. But I don't have a credit card. Do they accept Pre-paid credit or debits for a fixed amount? I would contribute at least $30.00 that way.
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 1:21 pm

I'm in as well, and we just hit the 45% mark. Yay us!

With the HD potential, perhaps that could be a stretch goal? I know nothing of the time/complexities that Mr. Model mentioned, so I'll leave that to you fine folks to discuss.

When you do an update (maybe at the 50% mark?), you may want to see how people learned about the project so we can figure out additional avenues to advertise in, so to speak. I'll tweet about it, and there are a quite a few silent/classic film bloggers out there that may mention it as well, which would be quite helpful.

I have never created a KS project, but I have backed just shy of 40, so please hit me up if I can be of some sort of assistance. No pressure, of course!

Dave
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 1:28 pm

drednm wrote:If you think I was confused before..... Here's the response from Jerry:

Yes, you can obtain a HD transfer and since we do not offer a blu-ray format the files would have to be downloaded to a external hard drive or to a HDCAM videotape. The DVD-R copy I priced for you was for a silent speed transfer (113 minutes) but if you want a HD copy the silent film will be preserved at sound speed (75 minutes) so the price will be less than originally quoted.

A HD (1080p, 24fps) ProRes 4:2:2 (MOV wrapper) standard or HQ transfer downloaded to 500GB hard drive will run $1,048.50, shipping included.

A HDCAM cassette - 94 minutes stock videotape copy will run $1,032.50, shipping included.

For your question concerning the version you would be receiving from us, I have copied this email to Rosemary Hanes and when she returns to work next week, she should be able to identify the specific copy she had in mind.

ANY IDEAS?


Ed this is basically the same thing that I wrote, above.

You need to make sure you can specify the speed. Usually when LoC says "silent speed" they mean 18 fps. "Silent speed" is subjective and you should be able to request a particular frame rate.

Ben
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drednm

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 1:34 pm

My gut tells me to stick with whatever version approximates the original running time. I don't want the casette.

Someone has tentatively offered to supply a score used at a festival showing. That would be great, but it would have to match up in running time.
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 2:20 pm

Let's make things even more complicated.

The issue with matching the original running time -- assuming you can find it -- is that it would presume that the version available from the Library of Congress is complete. Given that at least some of the titles are flash titles, the version we are looking at would run shorter.

Although fps rates varied throughout the silent era, they tended to increase as time went on. To quote Wikipedia's article on Movie Projector

Speeds ranged from about 18 frame/s on up - sometimes even faster than modern sound film speed (24 frame/s). Contrary to received opinion, 16 frame/s - though sometimes used as a camera shooting speed - was dangerously inadvisable for projection, due to the high risk of the nitrate-base prints catching fire in the projector. (A dramatic rendition of a nitrate print fire and its potentially devastating effects is famously found in Nuovo Cinema Paradiso, which revolves around the goings-on of a projectionist.)
.

Although the wrangles in Nitrateville over proper projection rates are among the most vicious, it does come down to a matter of opinion. The WIkipedia listing for the film claims it was 6982 feet. A comparison of how much is in LOC's hands would be worthwhile. Running time during the silent era might be anything between eight or ten minutes per reel, with ten for costume dramas and eight for a slapstick comedy. Without looking at the film, I'd tend to split the difference and say it should time in at about 63 minutes, less however much shorter the LOC copy is. However, since Steve Haynes said it was run at Cinevent, you might be able to track down who projected it and a rough sense as to whether it was projected at a reasonable speed.

Rest assured, no matter what the speed it turns out to be recorded at, some one will believe it wrong: quite probably me. However, I will be most pleased that multiple copies will be made.

By the way, you turn up third in the Google ranking when I searched for "Enchantment (1921 film)".

Bob
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 2:33 pm

LOC librarian states

- 35mm safety duplicate negative picture; 6737 feet; FQB 1137-1140

- Notes: Non-standard frameline. All footage. Frameline and dirt and minor deterioarion (intertitles and adjacent footage) are mastered into the source. Contrast of this print was intentionally held low to cover for the uneven fade in the nitrate at time of preservation in 1976. 6737 ft. 90 Min at 20 fps; or; 82 minutes at 22 fps (suggested)

That's close to the 6982 you mention.

The person who contacted me about accompanying the film at a festival says it ran 90 minutes.... so at least we have a match their with the "6737 ft. 90 Min at 20 fps"
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 3:19 pm

I pledged $25. Good luck!
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drednm

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 3:23 pm

We just broke the halfway point .... in just about 24 hours!! :D

28 days to go......
Ed Lorusso
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 3:33 pm

Ed,

:? I think 22 frames per second should be about ideal for a film from 1921. How about we start a campaign to get a transfer of OVER THE HILL (1920) made? I doubt rather anyone has seen it in more then 70 years. I'm also curious about REVENGE (1928). And if this is still under copyright to anyone or not? If so, then just who the devil owns the right to the old long unseen United Artists Silents anyway? Or has this title been orphaned?
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Matthew White

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 4:30 pm

I posted a link to the Kickstarter on my Facebook page. (Of course the number of friends that I have who are interested in silent film is a tad small).

Maybe we could post links on other silent film-related Facebook pages. That should reach the potential audience.
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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 5:34 pm

I posted one at HFT earlier this afternoon.
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drednm

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Re: Kickstarter Project: ENCHANTMENT 1921

PostThu Jan 09, 2014 6:23 pm

Fell free to post the link wherever you think it might do some good..... we're at $841 at this point.... and THANKS

E
Ed Lorusso
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http://www.amazon.com/Edward-Lorusso/e/ ... 203&sr=8-1
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