Recycled Music

Open, general discussion of classic sound-era films, personalities and history.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

earlytalkiebuffRob

  • Posts: 2751
  • Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:53 am

Recycled Music

PostSat Sep 23, 2017 1:21 pm

We have just had a thread about reused footage in films. Watching FRAMED (1930) last night, I recognised a scrap from the previous year's RKO musical TANNED LEGS in the background. In the past I've heard music from YOUNG MR LINCOLN reused in THE BLUE BIRD (1940), MARYLAND (1940), BELLE STARR (1941), THE MAN WHO SHOT LIBERTY VALANCE (1962) and HOW THE WEST WAS WON (1962), admittedly all legit as Alfred Newman* worked on the lot. In addition, Max Steiner reused bits of GWTW in THE SEARCHERS (1956), and SERGEANT YORK in another 1950s film, THE LION AND THE HORSE (1952), I think, as well as the title music in THE LOST PATROL (1934) turning up in CASABLANCA several years later.

Whereas it seems fair for a composer to re-use his music, it would be interesting to hear of other films where this has happened, particularly with other composers...

*I seem to recall part of the score for THE WESTERNER (1940) turning up in a 1950s western...
And think we all know about STREET SCENE...
Offline

brendangcarroll

  • Posts: 298
  • Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:15 am
  • Location: England

Re: Recycled Music

PostSat Sep 23, 2017 10:40 pm

Oh my, where do I begin?

You mentioned Max Steiner re-using music from GWTW. Well, he actually re-used music from 1938's JEZEBEL in GWTW, which is amusing as Selznick almost sued Warners, saying Jezebel ripped off his film and tried to spoil its release.
Max also reused his main title to EACH DAWN I DIE for WHTE HEAT (rescored and speeded up)

Erich Wolfgang Korngold (always pressed for time) was a relentless 'self borrower', and from memory, he 'cross-fertilised' the following:-

The Irish campaign sequence from ELISABETH & ESSEX was rescored and rhythmically altered for the Panama sequence in SEA HAWK

The Flood sequence from GREEN PASTURES is reused (speeded up) in the big sea battle near the beginning of SEA HAWK

A cue marked "London" from CAPTAIN BLOOD is re-used for the London sequence in DEVOTION.

The main title from BETWEEN TWO WORLDS is re-used, slightly altered, for the second subject of the Cello Concerto in DECEPTION

The Mexican gun battle in JUAREZ also turns up again (rescored and altered) in SEA HAWK.

There are others - if I remember them, I shall post again.

Alfred Newman was also a self-borrower. His lovely main theme from COME & GET IT (1936) became the main title for THE RAZOR's EDGE (1946). Cathy's theme from WUTHERING HEIGHTS is a very close relative of the later main title for SONG OF BERNADETTE.

Elmer Bernstein reused his main title for THE TEN COMMANDMENTS for the main title to THE BUCCANEER - rescored and speeded up!

Only those with a musical ear might notice these things...but they are great fun to spot and (given the time restraints these great composers woorked under, entirely justified IMO.
"Korngold has so much talent he could give half away and still have enough left for himself..." Giacomo Puccini (1921)
Offline
User avatar

radiotelefonia

  • Posts: 2053
  • Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: Recycled Music

PostSun Sep 24, 2017 12:29 am

On Max Steiner... compare the opening credits sequence of THEY DIED WITH THEIR BOOTS ON with the one from ROCKY MOUNTAIN. And there are bits of GONE WITH THE WIND in his score for THEY MADE ME A CRIMINAL.
Offline

R Michael Pyle

  • Posts: 1503
  • Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 1:10 pm

Re: Recycled Music

PostSun Sep 24, 2017 6:14 am

Sometime when you're watching "The Maltese Falcon" (1941) listen to the music which was written by Adolph Deutsch. Then listen to any long play album of Ernest Bloch, especially his piece "Schelomo". It's a perfect stolen base, Ty Cobb style, with spikes flying...
Offline

Richard P. May

  • Posts: 532
  • Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:12 am
  • Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Recycled Music

PostSun Sep 24, 2017 10:21 am

I forget the title now, but Steiner scored a 1935 RKO film which very clearly had an actor playing the piano using what became the "Melanie" theme in GWTW.
I'm sure somebody will know what movie this was, and will post it.
Dick May
Offline

brendangcarroll

  • Posts: 298
  • Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:15 am
  • Location: England

Re: Recycled Music

PostSun Sep 24, 2017 12:17 pm

Small correction:

The main title of THE RAZOR'S EDGE (by Newman) is recycled from a theme in THESE THREE (1936) not COME & GET IT as I said previously. I was having a senior moment....
"Korngold has so much talent he could give half away and still have enough left for himself..." Giacomo Puccini (1921)
Offline

brendangcarroll

  • Posts: 298
  • Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:15 am
  • Location: England

Re: Recycled Music

PostSun Sep 24, 2017 12:29 pm

Regarding Max Steiner and Melanie's theme in a 1935 movie, this may be BREAK OF HEARTS (Charles Boyer and Kate Hepburn in a story about classical music).

The problem with Steiner is he was composer on soe titles, uncreited composer on others and 'music director' o dozens of other titles. In 1935 alone, he worked on almost 40 films in once capacity or another.
"Korngold has so much talent he could give half away and still have enough left for himself..." Giacomo Puccini (1921)
Offline

earlytalkiebuffRob

  • Posts: 2751
  • Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Recycled Music

PostSun Sep 24, 2017 1:02 pm

brendangcarroll wrote:Small correction:

The main title of THE RAZOR'S EDGE (by Newman) is recycled from a theme in THESE THREE (1936) not COME & GET IT as I said previously. I was having a senior moment....


And speaking of Samuel Goldwyn / David O Selznick, the title music from STELLA DALLAS (1937) is the same as that in THE ADVENTURES OF TOM SAWYER the following year, and if I recall correctly was also heard in THESE THREE...
Offline

brendangcarroll

  • Posts: 298
  • Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:15 am
  • Location: England

Re: Recycled Music

PostMon Sep 25, 2017 12:38 am

Regarding TOM SAWYER, the title music is actually recycled from the end credits music from STELLA DALLAS. The music track from this picture is a real hodge podge of earlier sources, by a variety of composers, not just Alfred Newman. Someone should compile a cue sheet one day!
"Korngold has so much talent he could give half away and still have enough left for himself..." Giacomo Puccini (1921)
Offline

ClayKing

  • Posts: 181
  • Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:35 am
  • Location: New England

Re: Recycled Music

PostMon Sep 25, 2017 8:02 am

Recycling music composed for its earlier films was a common studio practice. Until the Muscians' Union agreement with the studios in '38 the film companies would "track" the cues (reuse the original recordings); thereafter they were required to newly record the old cues or pay the union commensurate fees. I once wrote an article about tracking and re-recording as it pertained to the Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials at Universal. While economy was the foremost reason for recycling, it wasn't the only one. Dissatisfaction with a cue might lead to substituting something considered "more appropriate" from a previous film. A list of recycled music would require many, many, many pages. Randomly check the music credits in IMDB for some films made in the '30s - 50s and "stock music" will invariable be listed.
-Rich
Offline

earlytalkiebuffRob

  • Posts: 2751
  • Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:53 am

Re: Recycled Music

PostMon Sep 25, 2017 1:31 pm

ClayKing wrote:Recycling music composed for its earlier films was a common studio practice. Until the Muscians' Union agreement with the studios in '38 the film companies would "track" the cues (reuse the original recordings); thereafter they were required to newly record the old cues or pay the union commensurate fees. I once wrote an article about tracking and re-recording as it pertained to the Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials at Universal. While economy was the foremost reason for recycling, it wasn't the only one. Dissatisfaction with a cue might lead to substituting something considered "more appropriate" from a previous film. A list of recycled music would require many, many, many pages. Randomly check the music credits in IMDB for some films made in the '30s - 50s and "stock music" will invariable be listed.


...which I think reused some of Franz Waxman's score for BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN...
Offline

BixB

  • Posts: 300
  • Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:59 am
  • Location: Cincinnati

Re: Recycled Music

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 8:58 am

The end music for FRANKENSTEIN was reused for the opening credits of COUNSELOR AT LAW. Then of course there's the whole Swan Lake thing.
Joe Busam
Offline
User avatar

Ray Faiola

  • Posts: 965
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:18 am
  • Location: Ellenville, NY

Re: Recycled Music

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 10:44 am

Richard P. May wrote:I forget the title now, but Steiner scored a 1935 RKO film which very clearly had an actor playing the piano using what became the "Melanie" theme in GWTW.
I'm sure somebody will know what movie this was, and will post it.


That theme was actually published. It was the theme from THE FOUNTAIN (1934) with Ann Harding and Paul Lukas.
Classic Film Scores on CD
http://www.chelsearialtostudios.com
Offline
User avatar

Ray Faiola

  • Posts: 965
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:18 am
  • Location: Ellenville, NY

Re: Recycled Music

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 10:46 am

brendangcarroll wrote:Regarding TOM SAWYER, the title music is actually recycled from the end credits music from STELLA DALLAS. The music track from this picture is a real hodge podge of earlier sources, by a variety of composers, not just Alfred Newman. Someone should compile a cue sheet one day!


Not only that, but the 92 minute version had different music scoring than the 77 minute reissue. Selznick was ever the fiddler (aka meddler) when it came to music!!
Classic Film Scores on CD
http://www.chelsearialtostudios.com
Offline
User avatar

Ray Faiola

  • Posts: 965
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:18 am
  • Location: Ellenville, NY

Re: Recycled Music

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 10:52 am

radiotelefonia wrote:On Max Steiner... compare the opening credits sequence of THEY DIED WITH THEIR BOOTS ON with the one from ROCKY MOUNTAIN. And there are bits of GONE WITH THE WIND in his score for THEY MADE ME A CRIMINAL.


The "Tara" theme was in embryonic stages by Max from 1937 through 1939. The most prominent variations can be heard in CRIME SCHOOL and the aforementioned THEY MADE ME A CRIMINAL.

As for BOOTS and ROCKY MOUNTAIN, both scores open with Max's Indian motif. BOOTS goes military and ROCKY MOUNTAIN stays with a pastorale variation on the Indian theme.
Classic Film Scores on CD
http://www.chelsearialtostudios.com
Offline
User avatar

Ray Faiola

  • Posts: 965
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:18 am
  • Location: Ellenville, NY

Re: Recycled Music

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 10:56 am

earlytalkiebuffRob wrote:
ClayKing wrote: I once wrote an article about tracking and re-recording as it pertained to the Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials at Universal.


...which I think reused some of Franz Waxman's score for BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN...


I just got in a print of MUTINY ON THE BLACKHAWK, the first of the Arlen-Devine adventures for Universal, which uses re-orchestrated cues from BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN.
Classic Film Scores on CD
http://www.chelsearialtostudios.com
Offline
User avatar

Penfold

  • Posts: 1313
  • Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 2:03 pm
  • Location: Bwistol, England.

Re: Recycled Music

PostTue Sep 26, 2017 12:09 pm

Meanwhile in Britain, the Allan Gray soundtrack of the German Emil and The Detectives from 1931 is used wholesale in the 1935 British Quota Quickie version.....in fact, it may even be the same recording. Allan was a serial offender, as his tune Commando Patrol - the Big Band Jazz number used to accompany the squad of despatch motorcyclists in Colonel Blimp, later turns up, playing on the radio, in A Canterbury Tale as Hay Petrie scrubs the floor of The Hand Of Glory.
I could use some digital restoration myself...
Offline

Richard Finegan

  • Posts: 1080
  • Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:09 am

Re: Recycled Music

PostThu Sep 28, 2017 2:02 am

brendangcarroll wrote:
Regarding TOM SAWYER, the title music is actually recycled from the end credits music from STELLA DALLAS. The music track from this picture is a real hodge podge of earlier sources, by a variety of composers, not just Alfred Newman. Someone should compile a cue sheet one day!


No need to compile a cue sheet. I have it right here.
From Selznick International Pictures, dated March 1, 1938.

THE ADVENTURES OF TOM SAWYER (1938) - Music Cue Sheet.

Reel 1:
1. Selznick Trademark (Alfred Newman & Raphael Penso) - 18 seconds.
2. A Merry Little Prelude (Samuel Kaylin) - 42 seconds.
3. Entr'act (Alfred Newman & J.H. Wood) - 1 minute, 9 seconds.
4. Harp Arpeggio (Max Steiner) - 5 seconds.
5. Josephine (Max Steiner) - 27 seconds.
6. The Wagon (Max Steiner) - 9 seconds.
7. Scherzo (Alfred Newman & J.H. Wood) - 15 seconds.
8. The School Theme (Dave Snell) - 48 seconds.
Reel 2:
9. The Lilac (G. Kline, Arranged by Arthur Lange) - 17 seconds.
10. Babette (William Kernell) - 1 minute, 28 seconds.
11. The Hay Wagon (Alfred Newman & Raphael Penso) - 40 seconds.
12. Scherzo (Alfred Newman & J.H. Wood) - 4 seconds.
13. The Lilac (G. Kline, Arranged by Arthur Lange) - 37 seconds.
Reel 3:
14. The School House (Max Steiner) - 12 seconds.
15. Columbia The Gem Of The Ocean (David T. Shaw) - 11 seconds.
16. The Lilac (G. Kline, Arranged by Peter Brunelli) - 37 minutes.
17. Woodland Idyll (J.S. Zamecnik) - 24 seconds.
18. The Lilac (G. Kline, Arranged by Arthur Lange) - 1 minute, 3 seconds.
19. The Lilac (G. Kline, Arranged by Arthur Lange) - 1 minute, 21 seconds.
20. Love's Adoration (Max Steiner) - 50 seconds.
Reel 4:
21. The Graveyard (Max Steiner) - 3 minutes, 57 seconds.
22. Dearest (Max Steiner) - 49 seconds.
23. Pets (Herbert Stothart) - 42 seconds.
24. Pets (Herbert Stothart) - 27 seconds.
25. Rondo Capricioso (Felix Mendelssohn, Arranged by Herbert Stothart) - 11 seconds.
26. Dearest (Max Steiner) - 1 minute, 23 seconds.
27. The Lilac (Paraphrase) (G. Kline, Arranged by Max Steiner) - 10 seconds.
28. The Lilac (G. Kline, Arranged by Peter Brunelli) - 36 seconds.
29. Chums (J.S. Zamecnik) - 43 seconds.
30. Dear Heart (J.S. Zamecnik) - 11 seconds.
31. The Little Pirates - Part 1 (Max Steiner) - 5 seconds.
31a. Entr'act (Alfred Newman & J.H. Wood) - 19 seconds.
31b. The Little Pirates - Part 2 (Max Steiner) - 57 seconds.
31c. Entr'act (Alfred Newman & J.H. Wood) - 15 seconds.
Reel 6:
32. Entr'act (Alfred Newman & J.H. Wood) - 26 seconds.
32a. The Little Pirates - Part 2 (Max Steiner) - 29 seconds.
32b. Entr'act (Alfred Newman & J.H. Wood) - 16 seconds.
32c. The Little Pirates - Part 2 (Max Steiner) - 10 seconds.
33. Reflections (Max Steiner) - 31 seconds.
34. Fauntleroy Fanfare (Max Steiner) - 17 seconds.
35. Pomp And Pageantry (Max Steiner) - 47 seconds.
36. Dearest (Max Steiner) - 19 seconds.
37. The Little Lord (Max Steiner) - 29 seconds.
38. Dearest (Max Steiner) - 17 seconds.
39. Dearest (Max Steiner) - 20 seconds.
40. Dearest (Paraphrase) (Max Steiner) - 51 seconds.
41. Dearest (Max Steiner) - 2 minutes, 34 seconds.
42. Dearest (Max Steiner) - 30 seconds.
42a. Dearest (Max Steiner) - 1 minute, 20 seconds.
Reel 7:
43. Prayer In Despair (Max Steiner) - 1 minute, 13 seconds.
44. Old Hundredth (Unknown) - 9 seconds.
45. Old Hundredth (Unknown) - 15 seconds.
46. Dearest (Max Steiner) - 1 minute, 34 seconds.
47. School Theme (Max Steiner) - 17 seconds.
Reel 8:
48. Pathetique (Herbert Stothart) - 1 minute, 1 second.
49. The Blackboard (Max Steiner) - 9 seconds.
50. If Ever I See (Unknown) - 37 seconds.
51. In The Sparkling Pool (J.S. Zamecnik) 1 minute, 1 second.
Reel 9:
52. The Enchanter (R.H. Bassett) - 17 seconds.
53. The Spider (R.H. Bassett) - 5 seconds.
54. In The Cavern (R.H. Bassett) - 28 seconds.
55. A Tale Of Adventure (R.H. Bassett) - 17 seconds.
56. Smokey (David Buttolph) - 7 seconds).
57. The Locked Door (William Axt) - 43 seconds.
58. The Lilac (G. Kline, Arranged by Peter Brunelli) - 40 seconds.
59. The Lilac (Paraphrase) (G. Kline, Arranged by Max Steiner) - 47 seconds.
60. If Ever I See (Unknown) - 5 seconds.
61. If Ever I See (Unknown) - 25 seconds.
Reel 10:
62. If Ever I See (Unknown) - 5 seconds.
63. The Treasure Chest (Max Steiner) - 1 minute, 33 seconds.
64. Rupert In Dungeon (Alfred Newman & Raphael Penso) - 45 seconds.
65. Hommage a Schubert (G. Guillemoteau) - 28 seconds.
66. The Fight (Peter Brunelli) - 21 seconds.
67. Prelude To A Melodrama (R.H. Bassett ) - 15 seconds.
68. The Boomerang (Samuel Kaylin) - 5 seconds.
69. The Climb (Max Steiner) - 1 minute, 57 seconds.
70. Entr'act (Alfred Newman & J.H. Wood) - 29 seconds.
(The sheet doesn't indicate the start of Reel 5, so assuming that doesn't mean there's no music in reel 5, it should start at about cue no. 26.)

And for those who find this material as fascinating as I do, here's the Cue Sheet for the movie's trailer:
(Cue sheet dated February 7, 1938).
1. Fanfare (Alfred Newman & Raphael Penso) - 12 seconds.
2. Entr'act (Alfred Newman & Raphael Penso) - 52 seconds.
3. The Lilac (G. Kline, Arranged by Arthur Lange) - 9 seconds.
4. The Little Pirates (Max Steiner) - 29 seconds.
5. The Treasure Chest (Max Steiner) - 22 seconds.
6. Entr'act (Alfred Newman & J. H. Wood) - 10 seconds.
Offline

brendangcarroll

  • Posts: 298
  • Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:15 am
  • Location: England

Re: Recycled Music

PostThu Sep 28, 2017 4:15 am

Fascinating indeed! Like a musical patchwork quilt! No wonder there's no composer credit on the titles. But I wonder who was responsible for assembling and stitching all these short cues into a score? Maxie?
"Korngold has so much talent he could give half away and still have enough left for himself..." Giacomo Puccini (1921)
Offline

wich2

  • Posts: 1378
  • Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:11 am

Re: Recycled Music

PostThu Sep 28, 2017 5:38 pm

Let's not think this started with the Flickers!

Composers have long stolen or riffed on earlier work by themselves and others.
Offline
User avatar

FrankFay

  • Posts: 3156
  • Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:48 am
  • Location: Albany NY

Re: Recycled Music

PostThu Sep 28, 2017 5:51 pm

ClayKing wrote:Recycling music composed for its earlier films was a common studio practice. Until the Muscians' Union agreement with the studios in '38 the film companies would "track" the cues (reuse the original recordings); thereafter they were required to newly record the old cues or pay the union commensurate fees. I once wrote an article about tracking and re-recording as it pertained to the Flash Gordon and Buck Rogers serials at Universal. While economy was the foremost reason for recycling, it wasn't the only one. Dissatisfaction with a cue might lead to substituting something considered "more appropriate" from a previous film. A list of recycled music would require many, many, many pages. Randomly check the music credits in IMDB for some films made in the '30s - 50s and "stock music" will invariable be listed.



Paramount reused a lot of music- "Look What I've Got" was likely to turn up on a radio or in a nightclub. Aside from cost savings I think they might have done it to keep a tune in the public ear
Eric Stott
Offline
User avatar

Mike Gebert

Site Admin

  • Posts: 5647
  • Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:23 pm
  • Location: Chicago

Re: Recycled Music

PostThu Sep 28, 2017 7:51 pm

Speaking of recycled music, i saw headlines on some new-movie sites saying that Danny Elfman would bring back John Williams' Superman theme to the Justice League movie. So add this one to the list:

Justice League: music from Erich Wolfgang Korngold's score for King's Row
“Sentimentality is when it doesn't come off—when it does, you get a true expression of life's sorrows.” —Alain-Fournier
Offline

brendangcarroll

  • Posts: 298
  • Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:15 am
  • Location: England

Re: Recycled Music

PostThu Sep 28, 2017 11:10 pm

Mike - I am puzzled by your post.

You say Danny Elfman is planning to re-use Williams' SUPERMAN theme in Justice League ....and then say it's music from Korngold's KINGS ROW? Which is it? Or were you discreetly noting that Williams' theme bears a resemblance to KINGS ROW ?

Of course, the greatest example of a re-use of music from the Golden Age is when the 1982 TV movie remake of The Letter re-used Max Steiner's score from the 1940 version (to no great effect, the movie was still lousy).
"Korngold has so much talent he could give half away and still have enough left for himself..." Giacomo Puccini (1921)
Offline
User avatar

Ray Faiola

  • Posts: 965
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:18 am
  • Location: Ellenville, NY

Re: Recycled Music

PostFri Sep 29, 2017 4:19 pm

brendangcarroll wrote:Fascinating indeed! Like a musical patchwork quilt! No wonder there's no composer credit on the titles. But I wonder who was responsible for assembling and stitching all these short cues into a score? Maxie?


That would have been studio music director Lou Forbes (Leo F'orbstein's brother). He receives music credit on screen. When more than one composer contributed to a score, the studio M.D. got the credit.
Classic Film Scores on CD
http://www.chelsearialtostudios.com
Offline
User avatar

Ray Faiola

  • Posts: 965
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:18 am
  • Location: Ellenville, NY

Re: Recycled Music

PostFri Sep 29, 2017 4:21 pm

2. A Merry Little Prelude (Samuel Kaylin) - 42 seconds.

I've tracked this as far back as THE SILK HAT KID, Fox 1934 (Kaylin was a Fox staff composer). But I have no idea if that is the picture for which the cue was originally written.

67. Prelude To A Melodrama (R.H. Bassett )

This is the most anachronistic cue in the picture. It sounds like it was from the Sam Fox Library or even earlier. Selznick was nuts when it came to music.
Classic Film Scores on CD
http://www.chelsearialtostudios.com
Offline
User avatar

Mike Gebert

Site Admin

  • Posts: 5647
  • Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:23 pm
  • Location: Chicago

Re: Recycled Music

PostFri Sep 29, 2017 8:26 pm

Mike - I am puzzled by your post.

You say Danny Elfman is planning to re-use Williams' SUPERMAN theme in Justice League ....and then say it's music from Korngold's KINGS ROW? Which is it? Or were you discreetly noting that Williams' theme bears a resemblance to KINGS ROW ?


“Sentimentality is when it doesn't come off—when it does, you get a true expression of life's sorrows.” —Alain-Fournier
Offline
User avatar

CoffeeDan

  • Posts: 904
  • Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:55 pm
  • Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Re: Recycled Music

PostFri Sep 29, 2017 11:54 pm

If I must say so, John Williams' theme for STAR WARS is an even more direct crib from Korngold's main theme for KINGS ROW. Even the rhythmic structure is pretty close.
Offline
User avatar

Mike Gebert

Site Admin

  • Posts: 5647
  • Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 3:23 pm
  • Location: Chicago

Re: Recycled Music

PostSat Sep 30, 2017 6:48 am

Well, they both are, since they're practically the same theme.
“Sentimentality is when it doesn't come off—when it does, you get a true expression of life's sorrows.” —Alain-Fournier
Offline
User avatar

Ray Faiola

  • Posts: 965
  • Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:18 am
  • Location: Ellenville, NY

Re: Recycled Music

PostSat Sep 30, 2017 1:23 pm

There are two identical sequential notes in the KINGS ROW and STAR WARS themes. The dynamics are definitely similar and it's obvious Williams (and Spielberg) were influenced by Korngold. But they are not the same theme. The melody lines are different; the orchestrations are different (the original Roder/Friedhofer orchestrations - not the Christopher Palmer augmented orchestrations for KR, although Williams, Herbert Spencer and Spielberg might have been influenced by Gerhardt's recordings and not the actual soundtrack); the harmonics are different. Nevertheless, if you know KINGS ROW and you hear STAR WARS it is impossible not to link them. Such is the power of the character of music even when the incidentals bear only passing resemblance.
Classic Film Scores on CD
http://www.chelsearialtostudios.com
Offline

djwein

  • Posts: 7
  • Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:00 am

Re: Recycled Music

PostSat Sep 30, 2017 2:49 pm

I'm very familiar with Malcolm's Arnold's classic Oscar-winning score for THE BRIDGE ON THE RIVER KWAI. I noticed recently that quite a few of its themes are recycled in DUNKIRK and THE CHALK GARDEN, especially those cues that portend trouble.
Next

Return to Talking About Talkies

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests