Quick Vitaphone question

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greta de groat

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Quick Vitaphone question

PostWed Jun 08, 2016 4:02 pm

Can someone give me the title of a Vitagraph musical short (or feature) where the picture element survives but the discs are lost? Especially if it features a musical performer for whom this would fill an important gap in their career documentation (i'm still working on my use studies).

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greta
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Nick_M

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostWed Jun 08, 2016 10:18 pm

Not a musical, but The Donovan Affair (1929) is missing its audio.
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Spiny Norman

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostThu Jun 09, 2016 12:28 am

Daphne Pollard in Cleo to Cleopatra - although whether this is an important gap is another matter. It's more of a vaudeville shot than a movie.
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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostFri Jun 10, 2016 5:15 am

Ron Hutchinson of The Vitaphone Project here. Well, you asked for it. There are about 300 1926-30 Vitaphone (not Vitapgraph) sound shorts for which the 35mm picture element survives, but currently no accompanying soundtrack disk is known. This is a better situation than the other way aroiund, as it is more likely that 9 decades later a disk turns up than nitrate film. Each year we still uncover many disks and usually at least afew match surviving film.

Here is the current list of Vitaphone shorts for which only picture survives but no sound:

AL ABBOTT IN “SMALL TOWN RAMBLES”
AL LYDELL & BOBBY HIGGINS IN “A FRIEND OF FATHER’S”
ALBERT CARROLL IN “IMPRESSIONS”
ALBERT SPAULDING, CONCERT VIOLINIST
ALBERT MORRISON, ASSISETED BY WALTER WEEMS
AMATEUR NIGHT
ANDERSON & GRAVES IN “FISHING AROUND”
ANNA CHANDLER IN “POPULAR SONGS”
ARCHIE GOTTLER, HIS SONGS ARE IN MILLIONS OF HOMES
THE ARNAUT BROTHERS
ARTHUR & MORTON HAVEL IN “PLAYMATES”
AT THE PARTY
AT YOUR SERVICE
AUNT JEMIMAH, THE ORIGINAL FUN FLOWER MAKER
BAILEY & BARNUM IN “THE GLOBE TROTTERS”
BAILEY & BARNUM IN “WITHOUT A BAND”
BARTRAM AND SAXTON IN “THE LAND OF HARMONY”
BEATRICE LILLIE AND HER BOYFRIENDS
BEN BARD IN “THE CHAMPIONSHIP GOLFER”
BEN RYAN AND HARIETTE LEE, WEBSTERIAN STUDENTS
BENNETT TWINS, LITTLE BARE-KNEED SYNCOPATORS
BERT SWOR IN “DUCKS AND DEDUCTS”
BILLY LYTELL & TOM FANT IN “TWO OF A KIND”
BOBBY FOLSOM, A MODERN PRISCILLA
BOBBY GILETTE WITH DORIS WALKER IN “SYNCOPATED BREEZES”
BORN & LAWRENCE IN “THE ARISTOCRATS”
BORN & LAWRENCE IN “THE SIDE SHOW”
BRITT WOOD, THE BOOB AND HIS HARMONICA
BROOKS AND ROSS, TWO BOYS AND A PIANO
BROWN AND WHITAKER, IN THE PARK
BRUCE BOWERS IN “ARTISTIC MIMICRY”
BUDDY DOYLE, THE SINGING GEORGIAN
BUDDY DOYLE SINGING “TAKE IN THE SUN” AND OTHERS
BURKE & DURKIN IN “A TETE A TETE OF SONGS”
CAROLINA SEGRERA, THE CUBAN NIGHTENGALE
THE CAVE CLUB
CECILIA LOFTUS IN HER FAMOUS IMPERSONATIONS
CHARLES C. PETERSON, BILLIARD CHAMPION
CHARLES IRWIN, THE DEBONAIR HUMORIST
CHARLES ROGERS IN “THE ICE MAN”
CHARLES RUGGLES AND COMPANY IN “WIVES, ETC.”
CHIC YORKE AND ROSE KING IN “TINTYPES”
CHIEF CAUPOLICAN, THE INDIAN BARITONE
CLAIR OMAR MUSSER
CLARENCE TISDALE, THE SOUTHLAND’S SPRITUAL TENOR
CLAUDIA COLEMAN
CODEE AND ORTH IN “STRANDED IN PARIS”
CLYDE COOK IN “LUCKY IN LOVE”
COLETTA RYAN AND DUKE YELLMAN IN “SONGOLOGY”
THE COLLEGIATE FOUR IN “CAMPUS CAPERS”
COYLE & WEIR IN “SONGS AND DANCES”
THE CRUSE BROTHERS, THE MISSOURI SHIEKS
DAPHNE POLLARD IN “CLEO TO CLEOPATRA”
DAVE BERNIE’S ORCHESTRA
DE LA PLAZA AND JUANITA WITH THEIR SPANISH SERENADERS
DEAD OR ALIVE WITH HUGH O’CONNELL
DEVIL’S PARADE
THE DIPLOMATS
DIXIE DAYS
DOLLY CONNNOLLY AND PERCY WENRICH
DORA MAUGHAN, THE BAD, BAD WOMAN
DORIS DUNCAN, HERRING AND ZEH
DOROTHY AND ROSETTA RYAN IN “MIRTH AND MELODY
DOROTHY WHITMORE, THE POPULAR PRIMA DONNA
DOUGLAS STANBURY
DOUG AND GAMBY O ROXY’S RADIO GANG
ED LOWRY WITH HIS ORCHESTRA
EDDIE CONRAD, BROADWAY’S FAVORITE COMEDIAN (two shorts)
EDDIE GREEN AND CO. IN “SENDING A LETTER”
EDDIE LAMBERT, AMERICA’S FOREMOST CONCERT PIANIST
EDDIE MILLER IN “THE ONE MAN QUARTETTE”
EDDIE NELSON AND CO. IN “STOP AND GO”
EDDIE PEABODY ASSISTED BY JIMMY MAISEL “IN A MUSIC SHOP”
EDDIE QUILLAN AND FAMILY
ELEANOR PAINTER, THE LYRIC SOPRANO
ETHEL GREY TERRY IN “SHARP TOOLS”
FANNIE WARD IN “THE MIRACLE WOMAN”
FANNY AND KITTY WATSON IN “BIGGER AND BETTER”
THE FASHION PLATES OF HARMONY
FIELDS AND JOHNSTON IN “TERRY AND JERRY”
FLO LEWIS IN “GIVE US A LIFT”
FLORENCE MOORE
THE FLORENTINE CHOIR OF FLORENCE
FLORRIE LAVERE WITH LOU HANDMAN OFFERS “PERSONALITIES”
THE FOUR ARISTOCRATS (two shorts)
THE FOUR SYNCO-PETS IN “MUSICAL MOMENTS”
FRANK BROWNE AND KAY LA VELLE IN “DON’T HANDLE THE GOODS”
FRANK CRUMIT, THE ONE MAN GLEE CLUB
FRANK MOULAN, THE MUSICAL COMEDY & LIGHT OPERA COMEDIAN
FRANK ORTH AND COMPANY IN “MEET THE WIFE”
FRED ARDATH (2 shorts)
FRED KEATING IN “ILLUSIONS”
GENE MORGAN AND HIS ORCHESTRA
GEORGE FISHER AND HONEY HURST IN “APARTMENT HUNTING”
GEORGE GIVOT AND LEONARD & HINES
GEORGE ROSENER IN “THE FALLEN STAR”
GEORGE WHITING AND SADIE BURT IN “SONG SAYINGS”
GEORGES CARPENTIER IN “NAUGHTY BUT NICE”
GRACE HAYES AND NEVILLE FLEESON IN “DIAMOND LIL”
GUY ROBERTSON IN “HIGH WATER”
HARRINGTON SISTERS IN “A GARDEN OF SONGS”
HARRY AND DAN DOWNING IN “HIGH UP AND LOW DOWN”
HARRY DELF IN “SOUP”
HARRY LANG AND BERNICE HALEY IN “WHO’S WHO”
HARRY TATE IN “MOTORING”
HARRY TATE IN “SELLING A CAR”
HARRY TATE IN “THE PATENT OFFICE”
HEARST PAPER RADIO KIDS
HELEN YORKE AND VIRGINIA JOHNSON IN “CRINOLINE CLASSICS”
HENRY HALSTEAD’S BAND IN “CARNIVAL NIGHT IN PARIS”
HERBERT RAWLNSON, THE MONOLOGIST OF THE SCREEN
HERE COMES THE SHOWBOAT
HERMAN TIMBERG IN “THE LOVE BOAT”
HOBART BOSWORTH IN “A MAN OF PEACE”
HOPE HAMPTON IN THE FOURTH ACT OF “MANON”
HOPE VERNON, THE SUNSHINE GIRL
HOW’S YOUR STOCK?
“THE HUNT” WITH VERNON RICKARD
HURLEY, PUTNAM AND SNELL
HURST ANG VGT IN “BEFORE THE BAR”
“IN THE MINES” WITH VERNON RICKARD AND THE BLACK DIAMOND FOUR
IN THE NICK OF TIME
IRENE RICH AND CO, IN “THE BEAST”
IRENE STONE IN “SONGS AS YOU LIKE THEM”
ISA KREMER (3 shorts)
JACK AND JOHNNY TRIGG
JACK GOLDIE IN “THE ACE OF SPADES”
JACK McLALLEN AND SARAH IN “OH SARAH”
JACK NORWORTH IN “SONGS AND THINGS”
JACK WHITE AND HIS CHATEAU MADRID CLUB ENTERTAINERS
JANET ADAIR IN “HERE COMES THE BRIDESMAID”
JAY VELIE IN “SONGS OF LOVE”
JEAN BARRIOS IN “FEMININE TYPES”
JESSE STAFFORD AND HIS ORCHESTRA
JIM AND BETTY MORGAN IN “SONGS AS YOU LIKE THEM”
JIM MILLER AND CHARLES FARRELL
JIMMY DUFFY AND HELEN GLEASON IN ‘FRESH FROM HOLLYWOOD”
JIMMY LYONS, THE UNOFFICIAL DIPLOMAT
JOE BROWNING AS THE REFORMER
JOE LEWIS, THE NIGHT CLUB FAVORITE
JOE MAY AND DOROTHY OAKS IN “A PERFECT UNDERSTANDING”
JOE WESTON AND COLETTE LYONS IN “EAST SIDE, WEST SIDE”
JOHN CHARLES THOMAS, OUTSTANDING AMERICAN BARITONE
JOHN HYAMS AND LEILA McINTIRE IN “ALL IN FUN”
JOHN MILJAN IN “HIS NIGHT OUT”
JOHN T. MURRAY AND VIVIENE OAKLAND IN “SATIRES”
JOHN T. MURRAY AND VIVIENE OAKLAND IN “ THE HALL OF INJUSTICE”
JOHNNY HYMAN IN “PLAYING PRANKS WITH WEBSTER”
JOLLY FANNY RICE IN “TYPES”
JOSEF KALLINI
JOSEPH DISKAY , THE HUNGARIAN TENOR
JOSEPH REGAN, AMERICA’S FOREMOST IRISH TENOR
JOSIE HEATHER, THE CHARACTER COMEDIENNE
JULIA SANDERSON AND FRANK CRUMIT IN “WORDS OF LOVE”
JUNE PURSELL, HOLLYWOOD’S RADIO GIRL
JUNE, THE ENGLISH MUSICAL COMEDY STAR, WITH JOHN HUNDLEY
KARYL NORMAN, THE CREOLE FASHION PLATE
THE KAUFMAN BROTHERS, IRVING AND JACK
THE KIDDIE’S CABARET
KJERULF’S MAYFAIR QUINTETTE
KNIGHT MACGREGOR
THE KOUNS SISTERS
KUZNETZOFF AND NICOLINA IN “A RUSSIAN RHAPSODY”
LARRY CEBALLOS REVUE
LEO CARILLO IN “THE FOREIGNER”
LEO CARILLO IN “THE HELL GATE OF SOISSONS”
LERDO’S MEXICAN ORCHESTRA
LIPTON AND TERRILL IN “THE HUMAN MUSIC BOX”
LITTLE BILLY, THE FLAMING YOUTH
LOBO, THE DOG OF DOGS
LOOMIS TWINS
LORRAINE HOWARD AND FLORENCE NEWTON IN “WEDDING BELLES”
LOW DOWN, A BIRD’S EYE VIEW OF HARLEM
LUANA ALCANIZ, “DONDE ESTAS CORAZON”
LYNN COWAN COMMUNITY SINGING (4 shorts)
MAL HALLETT AND HIS WAY DOWN EAST BAND
MARCHING HOME
MARGARET McKEE
MARIE VERO
MARLOWE AND JORDAN
MASTER GILBERT,SENSATIONAL CHILD ARTIST
MAY McAVOY IN “SUNNY CALIFORNIA”
McKAY AND ARDINE IN “BACK FROM ABROAD”
MEXICAN TIPICA ORCHESTRA
MEYERS AND HANFORD, THE ARKANSAS TRAVELLERS
MIKE AMES IN “THE VARSITY VAMP”
MILLER AND LYLES IN “THE MIDNIGHT LODGE”
MILLER AND LYLES IN “THEY KNOW THEIR GROCERIES”
MILTON C. WORK
MINSTREL DAYS
MISS BOBBY FOLSOM IN “TYPICAL TYPES”
MISS KITTY DONER IN “A BIT OF SCOTCH”
MISS KITTY DONER, THE FAMOUS IMPERSONATOR
MISS MARCELLE, SINGING SOUTHERN SYNCOPATED SONGS
MONEY, MONEY, MONEY
MONTAGUE LOVE IN “CHARACTER STUDIES”
MR. AND MRS. JACK NORWORTH IN “ODDS AND ENDS”
MR. FRANK GABY, THE TOUT
NAN HALPERIN, AMERICA’S FAMOUS SATIRIST
NATT CARR, CHARACER COMEDIAN
THE NEWSBOYS’ HARMONICA BAND
THE NINETY-NINTH AMENDMENT
NON-SUPPORT
THE NOTRE DAME GLEE CLUB
O’NEIL AND VERMONT
ONLY THE GIRL
PACK UP YOUR TROUBLES, WITH DOUGLAS STANBURY
THE PALM BEACH FOUR
“PAPA’S VACATION” WITH WILLIAM DEMAREST
THE PARAGONS IN THE TROPICS
PASQUALE AMATO IN “A NEOPOLITAN ROMANCE”
PAT WEST AND HIS MIDDIESPAUL CUNNINGHAM AND FLORENCE BENNETT, THE POULAR SINGING COMPOSERS
PAULA TRUMAN IN “A GLIMPSE OF THE STARS”
PAULINE ALPERT IN “WHAT PRICE PIANO?”
PAULO, PEQUITA AND CHIQUITA
THE PAY OFF, WITH HENRY B. WALTHALL
POLLY MORAN, THE MOVIE CHATTERBOX
THE PREDICTION
THE RANGERS IN “AFTER THE ROUNDUP”
RAY HUGHES AND PAM IN “THE FALL GUY”
RAYMOND EISMAN, THE LITTLE ARTIST
RAYMOND HITCHCOCK IN “AN EVENING AT HOME WITH HITCHY”
THE RECORD BOYS (two shorts)
RED DONAHUE AN U-NO IN “A TRAFFIC MUDDLE”
REDMOND AND WELLS IN “THE GYP”
REEVA REYES, THE PIQUANT SENORITA
RENEE TUMANOVA AND COMPANY
RICHARD CARLE IN “THE WORRIER”
RIN TIN TIN AND HIS OWNER AND FRIEND,
MR. LEE DUNCAN
ROBERT EMMET KEANE AND CLAIRE WHITNEY IN “ROOM 909”
ROBERT T. HAINES IN “TEN MINUTES”
ROY AND DOT DEAN IN “HE’S A DEVIL”
RUTH BRETON, THE CELEBRATED VIOLINIST
RUTH ETTING IN “BROADWAY’S LIKE THAT”
RTH GLANVILLE, AMERICA’S PREMIERE SAXOPHONIST
SALLY FIELDS IN “THE HOSTESS”
SAM COSLOW, THE BROADWAY MINSTREL
SAMMY COHEN, IN “WHAT PRICEBURLESQUE”
SARAH PADDEN IN “SOUVENIRS”
SARAH PADDEN IN “THE ETERNAL BARRIER”
THE SERENADERS IN “RED HOT HARMONY”
SHAKE IT UP, WITH MORAN AND CHALLIS & THEIR CHEERFUL STEPPERS
SHAKESPEARE WAS RIGHT 
SHERRY LOUISE MARSHALL AND THE THREE BAD BOYS
SOLOMON’S CHILDREN
STELLA MAYHEW, THE HALLELUJAH LADY
STEVE FREDA AND JOHNNY PALACE IN “BARTCH A KALLOOP”
STEWART BRADY, THE SONG BIRD”
STRANDED
THE SUBSTITUTE
SUMMERS AND HUNT IN “SOME PUMPKINS”
THE SUNSHINE BOYS (two shorts)
SYLVIA CLARK IN “SEEING SARAH OFF”
SYLVIA FROOS, THE LITTLE PRINCESS OF SONGS (2 shorts)
SYMPATHY
TAJADO’S TIPICA ORCHESTRA
TED DONER AND HIS SUNKIST BEAUTIES
THE THREE BROX SISTERS IN “GLORIFYING THE AMERICAN SONG”
THE THREE COLONIAL GIRLS
TIMBLIN AND RAYMOND IN “THE TWO BLACK ACES”
TINY TOWN REVUE
THE TWO DOVES IN “DARK DAYS”
THE TWO DOVES IN “FLYING HIGH”
THE TWO DOVES IN “SCARED STIFF”
TWO ROUNDS OF LOVE
VENITA GOULD, FAMOUS STAR IMPERSONATOR
VINCENT ROSE AND JACKI TAYLOR AND THEIR HOLLYWOOD
MONTMARTE ORCHESTRA (two shorts)
VOICE OF VITAPHONE
WAITE HOYTE WITH J. FRED COOTS
WELLMAN AND RUSSEL IN “THE SWEET LONG AGO”
WILL AND GLADYS AHERN “ON THE RANCHO”
WILL AUBREY AND COMPANY IN “ A NIGHT ON THE BOWERY”
WILL OAKLAND, RADIO ENTERTAINER (two shorts)
WILLIAM HALLIGAN AND MARY MULHERN IN A NEW SKTCH
WILLIE AND EUGENE HOWARD IN “MY PEOPLE”
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greta de groat

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostFri Jun 10, 2016 9:27 am

Awesome, thank you so much Ron. I had tried using the spreadsheet on the Vitaphone site but could only come up with a handful of mostly obscure ones that i couldn't tell if they were musicals. This list is perfect! -- and very intriguing. Some comments below

vitaphone wrote:
Here is the current list of Vitaphone shorts for which only picture survives but no sound:
[lots of snips]

BOBBY FOLSOM, A MODERN PRISCILLA

Queen of the Desert?

vitaphone wrote:HERBERT RAWLNSON, THE MONOLOGIST OF THE SCREEN

That must have been a surprise to silent film goers.

vitaphone wrote:HOBART BOSWORTH IN “A MAN OF PEACE”

Awww, to bad, i really like Bosworth.

vitaphone wrote:HOPE HAMPTON IN THE FOURTH ACT OF “MANON”

Hope Hampton! This is great, this will be my example. I just spotted an opera poster up in a display at the SF opera where she is listed among the season performers, must be from around the same time. Wonder how much Daddy kicked in for that production.

vitaphone wrote:JOE MAY AND DOROTHY OAKS IN “A PERFECT UNDERSTANDING”

Not that Joe May, i assume

vitaphone wrote:PASQUALE AMATO IN “A NEOPOLITAN ROMANCE”
JOHN CHARLES THOMAS, OUTSTANDING AMERICAN BARITONE

Ouch, two great baritones.

vitaphone wrote:MONTAGUE LOVE IN “CHARACTER STUDIES”

This must be hilarious with no sound.

vitaphone wrote:SALLY FIELDS IN “THE HOSTESS”

Do we like her?

Actually lots of cool sounding things in this group, hopefully more discs will be reuinited!

thanks
greta
Greta de Groat
Unsung Divas of the Silent Screen
http://www.stanford.edu/~gdegroat
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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostSun Jun 12, 2016 3:43 am

That Vitaphone audioless list sort of matches the number German features that are said to be completely lost and no mention of what shorts they no longer had. Different reasons, though, then Vitaphone.

Somewhere in the middle of USA some many years ago(1970s) was a huge warehouse with 78s and it went up in flames. One wonders what Vitaphone discs might have been there and those said to have been used as Frisbees at a Warner recording stage by some pop group recording an LP there, if the musicals book of the era is correct. I do know that some MGM films came to Australia with sound on disc in that period where as, I believe, they were sound on film in USA. I saw two boxes of discs in London in 1971 that Anthony Slide(British-born silent screen researcher) gave to a friend. The discs had been found in Hollywood as being returned from who knows where and of two Ramon Novarro films. My friend, long deceased, was a Novarro fan and had worked at the National Film Theatre in a later career job in preparing films for screening there.
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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostSun Jun 12, 2016 8:08 am

moviepas wrote:That Vitaphone audioless list sort of matches the number German features that are said to be completely lost and no mention of what shorts they no longer had. Different reasons, though, then Vitaphone.

Somewhere in the middle of USA some many years ago(1970s) was a huge warehouse with 78s and it went up in flames. One wonders what Vitaphone discs might have been there and those said to have been used as Frisbees at a Warner recording stage by some pop group recording an LP there, if the musicals book of the era is correct. I do know that some MGM films came to Australia with sound on disc in that period where as, I believe, they were sound on film in USA. I saw two boxes of discs in London in 1971 that Anthony Slide(British-born silent screen researcher) gave to a friend. The discs had been found in Hollywood as being returned from who knows where and of two Ramon Novarro films. My friend, long deceased, was a Novarro fan and had worked at the National Film Theatre in a later career job in preparing films for screening there.
Either a few years before, or after, the turn of the millennium, a private radio and phonograph museum in Indianapolis was bought by a Dutch guy and exported to the Netherlands and sold off the items.
I had a look at it at the time but didn't buy anything off him. But looking back I'm almost certain there were vitaphone records there because of the size.
The Vitaphone Project was already underway at that time so I wonder if a) they already checked or b) overlooked this.
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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostSun Jun 12, 2016 9:32 am

Yes, The Vitaphone Proiject was in contact with that Netherlands collector and has his few soundtrack disks included on our inventory spreadsheet.

On the Warner Bros "frisbee" story.... In the late 1980's a cache of about 2000 Vitaphone disks were found behind the screen of the scoring stage at Warner Bros studios. The story goes that some rockers would hurl some like frisbees. Not sure if true, but all of those disks were acquired by UCLA through Bob Gitt at the time and inventoried. Also added to our database.
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Spiny Norman

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostSun Jun 12, 2016 9:50 am

Ah good to know.
I once spoke to another guy who had found a couple of discs in his attic, but they were all already on the list of known items.


Funnily enough, for a few TV shows there is a similar situation: People recorded the audio at home, but the program itself is lost. And occasionally a kinescope exists, or filmed material, but the sound wasn't saved.
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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostSun Jun 12, 2016 6:52 pm

>And occasionally a kinescope exists, or filmed material, but the sound wasn't saved.<

Would be interested to hear about that specifically as it applies to kinescopes, as they were 35mm and 16mm Sound-on-Film prints. You could not "lose" one w/o the other, except by some technical glitch at the time of recording, yes?
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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostSun Jun 12, 2016 9:29 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:Ah good to know.
I once spoke to another guy who had found a couple of discs in his attic, but they were all already on the list of known items.


Funnily enough, for a few TV shows there is a similar situation: People recorded the audio at home, but the program itself is lost. And occasionally a kinescope exists, or filmed material, but the sound wasn't saved.

This is exactly how the single missing episode of DARK SHADOWS survives. A fan's tape recording of the sound track was mated to still pictures. There are over 1200 episodes, and the rest are represented by master tapes or b/w kinescope recordings.
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Spiny Norman

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostMon Jun 13, 2016 1:52 am

wich2 wrote:>And occasionally a kinescope exists, or filmed material, but the sound wasn't saved.<

Would be interested to hear about that specifically as it applies to kinescopes, as they were 35mm and 16mm Sound-on-Film prints. You could not "lose" one w/o the other, except by some technical glitch at the time of recording, yes?
There are a few US and UK ones that managed to. Mostly from the '50s.
I don't know the details of how that happened, whether it was optical or magnetic. (Other cases could be foreign dubs or filmed inserts missing score and effects or missing all audio.)
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Spiny Norman

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostMon Jun 13, 2016 1:56 am

Scott Eckhardt wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:Ah good to know.
I once spoke to another guy who had found a couple of discs in his attic, but they were all already on the list of known items.


Funnily enough, for a few TV shows there is a similar situation: People recorded the audio at home, but the program itself is lost. And occasionally a kinescope exists, or filmed material, but the sound wasn't saved.

This is exactly how the single missing episode of DARK SHADOWS survives. A fan's tape recording of the sound track was mated to still pictures. There are over 1200 episodes, and the rest are represented by master tapes or b/w kinescope recordings.
Yes that is the third option, that can still be quite satisfactory. It may have been mentioned before come to think about it, in a similar thread.
I myself keep waiting for a Canadian version of pride and prejudice with Patrick Macnee from 1958 to turn up on audio tape, because there are so many pictures from it that it would work quite well.
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Spiny Norman

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostMon Jun 13, 2016 2:31 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
wich2 wrote:>And occasionally a kinescope exists, or filmed material, but the sound wasn't saved.<

Would be interested to hear about that specifically as it applies to kinescopes, as they were 35mm and 16mm Sound-on-Film prints. You could not "lose" one w/o the other, except by some technical glitch at the time of recording, yes?
There are a few US and UK ones that managed to. Mostly from the '50s.
I don't know the details of how that happened, whether it was optical or magnetic. (Other cases could be foreign dubs or filmed inserts missing score and effects or missing all audio.)
PS Apparently sometimes they were recorded separately, known as sepmag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_follower
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Mitchell Dvoskin

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostFri Aug 05, 2016 7:37 am

An unrelated question, where there instances where the sound on film and the Vitaphone disc sound was different for a given film? I'm not referring to slight mixing/equalization differences, but rather different dialog or music.
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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostFri Aug 05, 2016 9:58 am

Mitchell, no there was no difference. In early 1930 Warner Bros switched to recording sound on film as the other studios already had. Like those studios, they still for a time issued disks to those theatres that could only play talkies in that format. However, the disks were made from the optical soundtracks so were identical to them.
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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 2:24 am

It appears that one of the films that vitaphone listed TED DONER AND HIS SUNKIST BEAUTIES 1928 that exists on film only is one I would greatly like to view. Which archive has it? I'm a dance historian and this might contain important content.
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vitaphone

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 5:53 am

Forrest, The print is at Library of Congress. You'd have to contact them to see if a viewing is possible.
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Spiny Norman

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 8:54 am

They're not PD, so ordering a copy is probably out of the question.
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vitaphone

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 9:02 am

The question was how to view them. He would of course have to contact them to see if a viewable copy is even available, then schedule a visit. Copies of course are not in the cards but that was not the question. Hope that clarifies things.
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Spiny Norman

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostFri Nov 11, 2016 1:39 pm

vitaphone wrote:The question was how to view them. He would of course have to contact them to see if a viewable copy is even available, then schedule a visit. Copies of course are not in the cards but that was not the question. Hope that clarifies things.
Most people do not live next door to the LoC, I imagine. If it had been possible to order a copy, then that would have been interesting and probably more practical.
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Gumlegs

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Re: Quick Vitaphone question

PostSat Nov 12, 2016 6:25 pm

wich2 wrote:>And occasionally a kinescope exists, or filmed material, but the sound wasn't saved.<

Would be interested to hear about that specifically as it applies to kinescopes, as they were 35mm and 16mm Sound-on-Film prints. You could not "lose" one w/o the other, except by some technical glitch at the time of recording, yes?

I have experience preserving kinescopes made during the early to late 1950s. In the case of 35mm NBC kines, the soundtracks were recorded on 16mm mag. The west coast repeat was broadcast using the negative interlocked with the sound. Positives with an optical track were struck only for summer re-runs.

16mm kinescopes were made for stations not directly hooked up to the coaxial cable (and certain private use), and were not "camera negatives."

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