Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

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Daniel D. Teoli Jr.

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Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 8:54 am

I can't tell. In spots it looks like they forgot to add the dust.

nsfw

Contains nudity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-9QuN1C5GU

What do you think?
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 10:10 am

Since it insists I sign in without offering me a hostage in return..... nope.

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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 11:36 am

The iris at the beginning is digital.

I just scanned a few bits-- no, really, I read it for the articles-- and I think it's a fake made by someone who has a certain feel for the era, but not quite enough skill to really pull off the makeup or lighting of the period. And it's just acted well enough to not feel like real stag films, which have that deer in the headlights quality of total non-actors.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 12:15 pm

Salacious! All that nudity! Oh, Mums and Dads! ........Are there any more of these films?

I liked the musical accompaniment - and no, it wasn't made in the 1920's, only made to look as though it was.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 12:22 pm

It does have the SWV (Something Weird Video) watermark. Perhaps more info is in their catalog.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 2:26 pm

Indeed the makeup and the acting is not correct. And the nudity's a bit odd.

It's not bad though. Far from obvious. Better than the lost film of Colin McKenzie that was remarkably free of dust, damage, or tramlines.

I didn't check the font but even fonts may give it away.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 2:51 pm

Mike Gebert wrote:The iris at the beginning is digital.

I just scanned a few bits-- no, really, I read it for the articles-- and I think it's a fake made by someone who has a certain feel for the era, but not quite enough skill to really pull off the makeup or lighting of the period. And it's just acted well enough to not feel like real stag films, which have that deer in the headlights quality of total non-actors.



That is another thing, the acting looked kinda polished. Why do people do this? You wanna make a repro OK, but don't try to scam people.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 3:03 pm

Well, a guy on another forum said it is a real 1927. He said it is called Forbidden Daughters

Last edited by silentfilm on Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 3:39 pm

Well, if there's documentation, then it's an adequately acted, not professionally lit silent nudie film, which is unusual but not impossible. Someone modern put that digital iris at the beginning of their clip. The titles are probably more like 40s-50s— I don't know the font name but it looks more of that era (it could be a modernist font of the 20s, but clean sans serif fonts of that would have been very uncommon in movie title usage until people like MOMA started slapping Futura on everything).
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 3:57 pm

The girl's eyebrows are present day. She's about as 1920's as I am, and I'm closer by only 20 years away. That's a total and utter phony. Too much shaved, besides. Not even a good imitation if you look at 20's French postcards. And, no, that's not a/my predilection.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 9:30 pm

I regret to say that I recognised the harem dance and can confirm that it is an authentic vintage film. It's also known as The Girls of Loma-Loma.

(In my defence, I don't sit around watching dirty antique films. I knew it from a frame grab that appears in a scholarly history of exploitation films, Eric Schaeffer's '"Bold! Daring! Shocking! True!": A History of Exploitation Films, 1919-1959". Yes, I did read it for the articles ...)

Schaeffer uses it as an example of a 'square-up' - a mildly salacious one-reeler that was pressed into service when customers felt they didn't get their money's worth out of the main feature.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 4:31 am

Brooksie wrote:I regret to say that I recognised the harem dance and can confirm that it is an authentic vintage film. It's also known as The Girls of Loma-Loma.

(In my defence, I don't sit around watching dirty antique films. I knew it from a frame grab that appears in a scholarly history of exploitation films, Eric Schaeffer's '"Bold! Daring! Shocking! True!": A History of Exploitation Films, 1919-1959". Yes, I did read it for the articles ...)

Schaeffer uses it as an example of a 'square-up' - a mildly salacious one-reeler that was pressed into service when customers felt they didn't get their money's worth out of the main feature.
But what if it was a hoax that that book simply fell for?

Although... That would mean that this fake was around at least since 1999... I would have made it out to be a more recent forgery, the means to do this convincingly are now more within everyone's reach.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 11:37 am

Well, now we're starting to get into conspiracy theory territory.

As noted elsewhere in the thread, the clip has a Something Weird Video watermark. As esoteric as is their subject matter, SWV's dedication to sourcing original prints is well known. On their website (caution - adult material therein), they state that Forbidden Daughters came directly from the collection of exploitation filmmaker/promoter David F. Friedman. Slipping a fake under his nose would be akin to slipping Raymond Rohauer a fake Buster Keaton short (although who wouldn't have loved to do that?)

I'm confident in calling this authentic.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 12:04 pm

This reminds me of the time animation critic Charles Solomon wrote in Enchanted Drawings (a history of animation) that considering no prints existed of J. Stuart Blackton's "Humpty Dumpty Circus" (1908), a stop-motion film supposedly made utilizing Blackton's daughter's jointed wooden toys, and since toys at the time were not versatile enough for this kind of use, that the film was probably never even made at all.

Except...then we started finding Vitagraph and other 1910s-1920s animated films using Humpty Dumpty Circus toys. Everything is not always so black-and-white, folks.

Last edited by silentfilm on Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 3:51 pm

What if someone forged a title that had really existed?
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 3:56 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:What if someone forged a title that had really existed?

Can you rephrase that? :?:
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 6:00 pm

Tommy Stathes wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:What if someone forged a title that had really existed?

Can you rephrase that? :?:
Well this youtube video still looks like a clever fake to me, for all of the reasons that people already mentioned above.
I considered that this might have been a fake that used the title of a real movie but I'm not sure how that would have helped.

I'm confused now. It still doesn't look quite right to me. The final camera tilt/boom looks a bit out of place too but I might be wrong about that.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostSun Jan 28, 2018 1:20 pm

This is genuine - I remember seeing it about 20-25 years ago on a late-night TV screening on ITV in the UK. It was featured in a 1989 Exploitation documentary presented by Ned Beatty called 'Sex and Hot Buttered Popcorn' - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0158942/.

Hair-styles, costumes and pretty much everything looks like the late 20s - just take a look at how Joan Crawford and her co-stars were styled for 'Our Dancing Daughters', in 1928 MGM. The whole thing resembles a live-action 'spicy' pulp-magazine comic-book story of the era, and has the look of a poverty-row, C-grade movie of the era which would be tricky (not to mention pointless) to have recreated at a later date. The same type of 'sexy' shorts were featured in the Brownlow/Gill Hollywood series about scandals ('Single Beds and Double Standards') and - I could be wrong, but - I think some of the same material was reused in the Ned Beatty doc.

The titles do look like they 'might' have been remade for a later stag-film re-release in the 30s or 40s (the font reminds me of Republic serials like 'King of the Rocket-men'), but that's pure conjecture though - the titles could conceivably be of the same late 20s/very early 30s vintage as the film. You'd need a devotee of vintage stag films to confirm that - and I totally agree this exactly the type of material that was/is Something Weird Video's bread-and-butter.

Personally speaking - and not wanting to cause offense - I can't quite understand why anyone could mistake this for or assume this was a modern film. For a start, if it wasn't a genuine relic of 1927, one would need to ask the question of 'why' and for 'whom' this would be made for?
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostSun Jan 28, 2018 1:29 pm

Also, Brooksie mentioned David F. Friedman : he's interviewed in the Ned Beatty doc, and it seems to have been made in conjunction with him, so it's pretty safe to assume much of the material came from his collection.

From the IMDB entry and my foggy memories of it, soon after Forbidden Daughters is shown they go into the sound era and start dropping in clips of Reefer Madness, Maniac, Test Tube Babies and the like - all very familiar material at the time (I remember first reading about them in Jonathan Ross' 'Incredibly Strange Film Book').
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostTue Jan 30, 2018 6:24 pm

Poptique wrote:Hair-styles, costumes and pretty much everything looks like the late 20s
What about the other hairstyles? See end of film for example, the camera tilt/pedestal shot. I wouldn't have thought they were so clean-shaven back then?
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostWed Jan 31, 2018 11:32 pm

They appear to be wearing flesh coloured g-strings that cover the front up, as burlesque dancers usually did in those days. It's very likely that the actresses in the film came from burlesque.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 1:13 pm

This is almost literally splitting hairs, for want of a better pun.

I agree with Brooksie - there's something going on their for the sake of propriety even if it's just a very neat shave. It's would be one thing for the (supposedly) delicate sensibilities of 1927 to end this type of film with it's actual 'money shot'; another for things to be, shall we say, slightly more unkempt.

Either way, I can't quite believe I've even got involved in a discussion to pointlessly defend the honor of a nearly 100 year soft-porn film! Maybe 90 years from now some people can stumble over this thread and argue if this was actually a genuine conversation or a satirical phony - I'm beginning to wonder myself...

To help cleanse my sense of well being, and tap out on a positive note, I should mention that I've so far watched two of the shorts so far on the new Sprocket Vault Charley Chase set, and it's a wonderful sight to see new (to me) Hal Roach produced films from the same era as the Laurel & Hardy movies I grew up on.

Everyone on this board should consider nabbing a copy to ensure more sets are released, and it's vaguely relevant to what we've been discussing, due to the irony that if you type 'Charley Chase' into Google today, you get an 'Adult Film Star' as your top result. Whether her films are phony, not to mention how she wears her hair in them, I don't particularly wish to know...
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 1:40 pm

Poptique wrote:This is almost literally splitting hairs, for want of a better pun.

I agree with Brooksie - there's something going on their for the sake of propriety even if it's just a very neat shave. It's would be one thing for the (supposedly) delicate sensibilities of 1927 to end this type of film with it's actual 'money shot'; another for things to be, shall we say, slightly more unkempt.

Either way, I can't quite believe I've even got involved in a discussion to pointlessly defend the honor of a nearly 100 year soft-porn film! Maybe 90 years from now some people can stumble over this thread and argue if this was actually a genuine conversation or a satirical phony - I'm beginning to wonder myself...

To help cleanse my sense of well being, and tap out on a positive note, I should mention that I've so far watched two of the shorts so far on the new Sprocket Vault Charley Chase set, and it's a wonderful sight to see new (to me) Hal Roach produced films from the same era as the Laurel & Hardy movies I grew up on.

Everyone on this board should consider nabbing a copy to ensure more sets are released, and it's vaguely relevant to what we've been discussing, due to the irony that if you type 'Charley Chase' into Google today, you get an 'Adult Film Star' as your top result. Whether her films are phony, not to mention how she wears her hair in them, I don't particularly wish to know...
Well, it doesn't really matter for me if it's an adult film or not. It still has historical value because it'd be weird to pretend that there was only highbrow culture in the past.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 1:59 pm

Of course there was porn. When Ed was doing his Kickstarter campaign for Marion Davies’ Buried Treasure, a few of us twitted him about the pornographic cartoon from 1927 by the same name; the Viennese archives are full of stuff meant for smokers, and Melies’ Apre le Bal from, I think, 1897, is porn. Just about every tech advance has its first commercial application in erotica. You have heard of the Internet, haven’t you?

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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 2:01 pm

You're missing my point - what struck me as weird is discussing something so blatantly and provably from the late 20s as potentially a 'modern phony', but that's because I happened to see the film 15-20 years ago in a documentary about exploitation cinema made some 5-10 years earlier, and thought some people might find that information vaguely useful.

The fact that it's a pulp-magazine inspired soft-porn film just makes the conversation even more random.

I was just trying to say that trying to date a film based upon how someone's privates are shaved is probably not the best way forward, but if it floats one's proverbial boat then undoubtedly sail away!

Bon voyage!! ;)
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 2:19 pm

Ha! Oh yeah - the internet, I must pay a visit to it some time.

I think I was, in a light-hearted way, attempting to get across the concept that I don't make a habit of seeking out saucy films from 100 years ago - being that this is the internet and pretty much everything we've here is searchable on one engine or another and I didn't wish to become known as an armchair expert on 'Dirty Movies Beloved of Our Grandpas'.

I've either failed dismally, rubbed some regulars up the wrong way (which sounds like a quote from a Carry On film if I ever wrote one), or peeps are just being offended for the sake of it.

I've been lucky enough to witness 'Buried Treasure', along with a bunch of other strange stuff one can't necessarily unsee - chances are it was in the same documentary I mentioned earlier, but maybe at some other time.

Guess I chose the wrong thread to chip in on by the sounds of things, and I take it all back - the film was shot last July in New Jersey and they're shooting the sequel this very week, which will be in two-color Technicolor and - wait for it - sound on disc! ;)
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 2:32 pm

Poptique wrote:Ha! Oh yeah - the internet, I must pay a visit to it some time.

I think I was, in a light-hearted way, attempting to get across the concept that I don't make a habit of seeking out saucy films from 100 years ago - being that this is the internet and pretty much everything we've here is searchable on one engine or another and I didn't wish to become known as an armchair expert on 'Dirty Movies Beloved of Our Grandpas'.

I've either failed dismally, rubbed some regulars up the wrong way (which sounds like a quote from a Carry On film if I ever wrote one), or peeps are just being offended for the sake of it.

I've been lucky enough to witness 'Buried Treasure', along with a bunch of other strange stuff one can't necessarily unsee - chances are it was in the same documentary I mentioned earlier, but maybe at some other time.

Guess I chose the wrong thread to chip in on by the sounds of things, and I take it all back - the film was shot last July in New Jersey and they're shooting the sequel this very week, which will be in two-color Technicolor and - wait for it - sound on disc! ;)


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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 2:44 pm

Now that I think about it, it's certainly one way to stand out from the crowd.

(and once again, I've inadvertently written innuendo in response - I hope I haven't terminally doomed myself to this calling! ;) )
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 2:46 pm

Plus, I've now at least got a pretty good working title for the book and blu-ray combo.
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Re: Is this movie from 1927 or is it a modern phony?

PostFri Feb 02, 2018 2:53 pm

Poptique wrote:Plus, I've now at least got a pretty good working title for the book and blu-ray combo.



I look forward to its appear in the Crowdfunding section.

Bob
Last edited by boblipton on Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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