Tweet Kino to release blu-rays/DVDs of some Paramount silents

It certainly sounds good from here.

I've been around a long time, since the Gaylord Carter/Lee Irwin era (my wife worked with Lee), and I've heard both live.

And though solo organ or piano can work, I prefer a multi-instrument sound. More versatile, and more like what the BEST original release accompaniment would have been.

-Craig

[Danny Burk]

If it comes down to getting a film I want, I'll take it whether I like the score or not. If not, I mute it and watch it silent. Not an ideal option, of course, and obviously I'd prefer it with a score that I like (i.e. "traditional"), but I'm still somewhat used to it from running completely silent 16mm prints when they were the only choice.

The issue is not the Alloy score, but that the Alloy score is the only option. Give me another option and I'll shell out even if the Alloy score is on it.

Indeed. I never bought A Trip to the Moon because the Air soundtrack was so incredibly terrible that I had to watch the thing on Netflix muted (I tried syncing it up with a YouTube clip of another version but that didn't work so well.) My wife is a HUGE fan of Our Lady Peace but she found Raine Maida's score to the 1912 version of Cleopatra was bizarre and out of place.

I'll take an appropriate needle drop over someone trying to be hip and edgy. In the end, I only have so much money and time. Might as well buy the things I know I'll enjoy instead of spending money on things I know I'll be disappointed with.

There's a whole lot of water treading in that Desert Oasis clip. Films have a rhythm. Repeated three or four note riffs with spread out repeats over and over "works" as wallpaper, but it doesn't do much to support the movie.

That sort of reuse was common by accompanists in/from the original release era, though.

I've really wanted to see A KISS FOR CINDERELLA after reading Klepper go on and on about it. I would like to hope that this one will make an appearance on video at last.

That sort of reuse was common by accompanists in/from the original release era, though.

What works "okay" in a live setting may not work as well in a home environment. The consideration for those distributing silent films on home video formats is whether to expend any effort to make that presentation reflect the period.

Experimentation is fine for a live presentation in a theater setting where the audience is paying to see that interpretation and are encouraged to think outside the traditional box. If the live audience reacts positively, then more live presentations with avant-garde musical interpretations are scheduled. It may not represent the wider fan base, but that's okay. In no way would this jeopardize traditional classical musical interpretations or the audience which appreciates films presented as authentically as possible.

The home video market creates a conundrum. Do you go with one or the other or ...given the ready availability of alternate track options... provide a choice, which probably comes down to licensing dollars?

My argument, for whatever weight it holds, is that marketers should endeavor to meet the expectations of the traditional audience first and then provide music options if the licensing can be budgeted. If I were lobbying for this I'd argue that alternative choices of music is a bonus, ...an added sales incentive..., just like commentaries, documentaries, trailers, deleted scenes and/or excerpts from other films.

I'll say it again, the music matters. If you're going to promote a remastered upgrade of something in the PD, shouldn't it be a premium product that doesn't limit that audience's interest?

Earlier, Mike Gebert suggested that there are two types of Shiek fans in the world, the Alloy Orchestra folks and the Gaylord Carter folks. I think Mike was being a bit cheeky, but for the sake of discussion I'd propose that there are other choices, such as commissioning music from Mont Alto or similar chamber orchestra with a solid reputation for traditional silent film scoring as a possible option for both films. I'd ask the good folks at KINO if this was ever considered?

My apologies for the length of these posts. I do have the tendency to be verbose. Sorry 'bout that.

One other consideration for the difference between a live performance and a blu-ray is replay value. An accompanist can tread water in a live performance and buy time to get back on track and no one notices, because by the time they do, the musician is past that and back in the groove. But on a blu-ray, that momentary indiscretion is burned into that part of the movie forever.

Ultimately, the goal of musical accompaniment isn't to accurately recreate a typical performance from the time period... it's to support the movie. The primary reason the Tiger Lillies and Air are despised is because they wallpaper over the films with irrelevant noodling that doesn't remotely follow the action on the screen. At least the Club Foot Orchestra and the Alloy Orchestra are making an effort to match what is going on in the film. They just don't have a lot of skill or taste. It's like the difference between absolutely dreadful and just generally lousy.

[Mike Gebert]

My argument, for whatever weight it holds, is that marketers should endeavor to meet the expectations of the traditional audience first and then provide music options if the licensing can be budgeted.

But what is the traditional audience? Organ accompaniment was held to be the ultimate traditional choice for many years, yet there are people here who can't abide organs. (I take them in small doses; I enjoy them live but prefer piano or small orchestra scores at home.) There are a lot of people here proclaiming their preference the only sensible choice, and they don't all match. And remember what David Shepard said about the avant garde scores on some of his releases—Japanese TV liked them, and they were his primary market, American DVD buyers were mainly the beneficiaries of their largesse.

There's no right answer.

As Mike says, a 'correct' answer is not straightforward. Certain motifs have become so cliched, or so associated with another piece of media, that to use them today would seem ridiculous, even if they would have seemed perfectly appropriate at the time. Sousa's The Liberty Bell - better known today as the Monty Python theme - is a perfect case in point.

There are also changes in the way we see a movie to consider. For example, I've got no doubt that the original score for Birth of a Nation gave the Ku Klux Klan some kind of triumphal march, which would raise some eyebrows today, to put it mildly.

Then, there's the variety a viewer of the time would have experienced, from a poor quality amateur piano accompaniment to a full orchestra. I suspect that people then, as we do now, prized the same quality that bigshot mentions - that of complimenting the picture, rather than calling attention to itself at the expense of the picture.

My argument, for whatever weight it holds, is that marketers should endeavor to meet the expectations of the traditional audience first and then provide music options if the licensing can be budgeted.

But what is the traditional audience? Organ accompaniment was held to be the ultimate traditional choice for many years, yet there are people here who can't abide organs. (I take them in small doses; I enjoy them live but prefer piano or small orchestra scores at home.) There are a lot of people here proclaiming their preference the only sensible choice, and they don't all match. And remember what David Shepard said about the avant garde scores on some of his releases—Japanese TV liked them, and they were his primary market, American DVD buyers were mainly the beneficiaries of their largesse.

There's no right answer.

The "traditional audience" is certainly open to debate, but I'll offer this for context: a home video release should be the equivalent of a grand cinema (road show) release. IOW, the best sound presentation would be a full orchestra, like many of the late silents with recorded soundtracks on strip or disc. A first tier release would be similar to Metropolis or Napoleon, but for most productions the obvious second choice would be a chamber orchestra. Barring that, piano would be the next logical soundtrack. I'm with you on organ accompaniment, ...small doses. And you're right, piano is better. Where I draw the line is synthesizers and other types of avant garde noise shaping that is often defined as "hip" or kewl to modern audiences less familiar with a traditional presentation.

Mike, you're indeed correct, there is no right answer, ...but I'd add, when limiting choice, there may be a wrong one.

As Mike says, a 'correct' answer is not straightforward. Certain motifs have become so cliched, or so associated with another piece of media, that to use them today would seem ridiculous, even if they would have seemed perfectly appropriate at the time. Sousa's The Liberty Bell - better known today as the Monty Python theme - is a perfect case in point.

There are also changes in the way we see a movie to consider. For example, I've got no doubt that the original score for Birth of a Nation gave the Ku Klux Klan some kind of triumphal march, which would raise some eyebrows today, to put it mildly.

Then, there's the variety a viewer of the time would have experienced, from a poor quality amateur piano accompaniment to a full orchestra. I suspect that people then, as we do now, prized the same quality that bigshot mentions - that of complimenting the picture, rather than calling attention to itself at the expense of the picture.

Brooksie, you make some good points here. However, these appear to be exceptions and aberrations to the vast musical repertory associated with silent film presentation. You're right, times change and our views on those times are inevitably altered as we become less attached to historical elements. Occasionally, as with Birth of a Nation, reassessing the music goes along with the film being reappraised.

I agree with Bigshot about music complimenting the picture rather than drawing attention to itself. The last thing I want to see is the normalization of synthesizers and other modern noise shaping tools in silent score composition. With rare exception, modern composition and avant garde music interferes with the mood of period film appreciation.

There's no right answer.

Yes there is. What I like is obviously the right answer. We should all agree on that.

The "traditional audience" is certainly open to debate, but I'll offer this for context: a home video release should be the equivalent of a grand cinema (road show) release.

I agree that that should be the goal. I appreciate good solo piano or organ, but that was for the secondary houses.

The last thing I want to see is the normalization of synthesizers and other modern noise shaping tools in silent score composition.

Reality enters into the equation, though. Those tools, in the hands of musicians with talent, can now reasonably suggest the multiple instruments we posit above - at a more reasonable cost.

With rare exception, modern composition and avant garde music interferes with the mood of period film appreciation.

Ah - different point! Because music produced by modern MEANS does not have to be modern MUSIC.

-Craig

I really wasn't meaning to say that the music shouldn't draw attention to itself. It certainly should draw attention to itself if the situation calls for it- the perfect example mentioned earlier is the chase music at the end of Birth of a Nation. You don't want to underplay that because of the subject. Griffith was making a point- regardless of what modern people think of the point- and it's the job of the composer to support it, not undercut it. Music that doesn't draw attention to itself is just nice wallpaper- tidy, inoffensive and bland- treading water and staying in the background. Music like that is only a little better than watching the film with no music at all. REAL accompaniment locks into the context of what is happening on the screen and ENHANCES and AMPLIFIES it. To me, the music in a silent film should be as important as the film itself. It should communicate the exact same emotions and accents that are on the screen, just as forcefully and just as eloquently- except in a different language- music as opposed to visuals.

The best silent film scores accomplish this. We're pretty fortunate today. Back in the VHS era, all we got was Rosa Rita and her pointless noodling and arbitrary needle drop off of 78s. I'd say that all but a handful of the scores for silent films at least qualify as adequate, and almost half of them could be called excellent.

I really wasn't meaning to say that the music shouldn't draw attention to itself. It certainly should draw attention to itself if the situation calls for it- the perfect example mentioned earlier is the chase music at the end of Birth of a Nation. You don't want to underplay that because of the subject. Griffith was making a point- regardless of what modern people think of the point- and it's the job of the composer to support it, not undercut it. Music that doesn't draw attention to itself is just nice wallpaper- tidy, inoffensive and bland- treading water and staying in the background. Music like that is only a little better than watching the film with no music at all. REAL accompaniment locks into the context of what is happening on the screen and ENHANCES and AMPLIFIES it. To me, the music in a silent film should be as important as the film itself. It should communicate the exact same emotions and accents that are on the screen, just as forcefully and just as eloquently- except in a different language- music as opposed to visuals.

The best silent film scores accomplish this. We're pretty fortunate today. Back in the VHS era, all we got was Rosa Rita and her pointless noodling and arbitrary needle drop off of 78s. I'd say that all but a handful of the scores for silent films at least qualify as adequate, and almost half of them could be called excellent.

We're on the same page, and I got what you meant originally. The way I'm looking at it is that the music shouldn't draw too much attention to itself or attention in a manner that takes the viewer out of the film. Silent film scores can have rousing moments, gentle pastoral interludes, rapid sections corresponding with action and/or humor, etc., all in service to the film.

Where I agree with Brooksie is that films like Griffith's Birth of a Nation can be reevaluated in a social context and themes meant to support or emphasize cultural stereotypes can be scored to lessen those elements without negatively impacting the film's best qualities. She's also right about music that's so recognizable that it has become cliche.

My disdain for synthesizer music is it's artificiality. I've never heard any of it that doesn't pull me out of a silent era picture.

[silentfilm]

Two years ago Jon Mirsalis played a synthesizer score live for The Birth of a Nation (1915) at the Kansas Silent Film Festival. Jon had sampled the sound of many orchestra instruments, and his score was tremendous. The score sounded so good that I actually enjoyed the first half of the film, even though I had already forced myself to watch it on DVD in the past. (I first saw it in film class in college 30 years ago. I still hate the second half of the film.)

While I agree with you that some scores like the Air Trip to the Moon (1902), the 1912 Cleopatra score and some of Maria Newman's Pickford efforts are so nontraditional and jarring that they make it hard to concentrate on the film, I would never consider the Alloy Orchestra's scores in the same league. Ken Winokur and his crew score their films out of love of silent films, as much as Ben Model, Donald Sosin, Jeff Rapsis and Mont Alto.

The best silent film scores accomplish this. We're pretty fortunate today. Back in the VHS era, all we got was Rosa Rita and her pointless noodling and arbitrary needle drop off of 78s. I'd say that all but a handful of the scores for silent films at least qualify as adequate, and almost half of them could be called excellent.

I remember seeing a silent film in my youth and it was at a serious scene and suddenly the Charleston started playing. That was quite the experience.

[Mike Gebert]

I saw Nosferatu with German titles and a score best described as appropriate to a strip club, lots of snare drum.

It's only uphill from there.

I saw Nosferatu with German titles and a score best described as appropriate to a strip club, lots of snare drum.

It's only uphill from there.

LOL.... I maintain that the accordion with singing on The Sky Pilot takes the cake.... and not a cake I want.

Jon Mirsalis played a synthesizer score live for The Birth of a Nation (1915) at the Kansas Silent Film Festival. Jon had sampled the sound of many orchestra instruments, and his score was tremendous.

^This. We are far from the Hammond Organ/Moog era.

some scores ... are so nontraditional and jarring that they make it hard to concentrate on the film, I would never consider the Alloy Orchestra's scores in the same league. Ken Winokur and his crew score their films out of love of silent films, as much as Ben Model, Donald Sosin, Jeff Rapsis and Mont Alto.

^And, this. I, too, recognize some of those discordant messes we all know of; for me, the first was the terrible "modern" score for METROPOLIS years ago (BBC, I think?) But for my ears, the Alloy stuff is as described above.

-Craig

Synthesizers are syntesizers - I never understood how Eric Beheim came to be David Shepard's go-to guy unless he just works really cheap, his stuff always sounded fake and he played it with no hint of finesse. I'm not interested in anything but the optimum experience, and I don't always have to have a full orchestra, but I DO insist on real music sensitively rendered.

Two years ago Jon Mirsalis played a synthesizer score live for The Birth of a Nation (1915) at the Kansas Silent Film Festival. Jon had sampled the sound of many orchestra instruments, and his score was tremendous

Ditto Jon's accompaniment for Old Ironsides (1926) at Cinecon a few years back. He really knocked it out of the park. It was a brilliant example of how well a synthesizer score can work, and actually felt like it improved the movie.

Two years ago Jon Mirsalis played a synthesizer score live for The Birth of a Nation (1915) at the Kansas Silent Film Festival. Jon had sampled the sound of many orchestra instruments, and his score was tremendous. The score sounded so good that I actually enjoyed the first half of the film, even though I had already forced myself to watch it on DVD in the past. (I first saw it in film class in college 30 years ago. I still hate the second half of the film.)

While I agree with you that some scores like the Air Trip to the Moon (1902), the 1912 Cleopatra score and some of Maria Newman's Pickford efforts are so nontraditional and jarring that they make it hard to concentrate on the film, I would never consider the Alloy Orchestra's scores in the same league. Ken Winokur and his crew score their films out of love of silent films, as much as Ben Model, Donald Sosin, Jeff Rapsis and Mont Alto.

Bruce, Ken Winokur and the Alloy Orchestra produced an amazing score for Man with a Movie Camera. I was in the audience when they performed this live at SFSFF some years ago. I'd never question their passion for silent cinema, and I'm confident that in a live setting their approach to music works well with a much wider variety of silent films. It's on DVD or BD ...where the immediacy of live performance linking film and audience is lost... that nontraditional scores with synthesized music can be a distraction.

Maybe I'm too calcified in my thinking on this, but with rare exception I'm persuaded that the best way to appreciate silent film is through an orchestral presentation scored with traditional instruments, in the same way sound classics are enhanced by an orchestra. That said, I'm always open to exceptions.

Maybe I'm too calcified in my thinking on this, but with rare exception I'm persuaded that the best way to appreciate silent film is through an orchestral presentation scored with traditional instruments, in the same way sound classics are enhanced by an orchestra.

R.-

Has anyone in this thread said that's not a "best way"? But don't we have to be realistic about the cost factor, considering the niche audience that we are?

My Wife is a musician; they like to eat decently, just like anyone else.

-Craig

P.S. - You might be shocked at the sheer amount of modern music not be produced live by "traditional instruments" - and that includes Features, and Broadway.

Maybe I'm too calcified in my thinking on this, but with rare exception I'm persuaded that the best way to appreciate silent film is through an orchestral presentation scored with traditional instruments, in the same way sound classics are enhanced by an orchestra.

R.-

Has anyone in this thread said that's not a "best way"? But don't we have to be realistic about the cost factor, considering the niche audience that we are?

My Wife is a musician; they like to eat decently, just like anyone else.

-Craig

P.S. - You might be shocked at the sheer amount of modern music not be produced live by "traditional instruments" - and that includes Features, and Broadway.

Craig, I empathize with your wife's POV, that's one reason I prefer as few artificial ingredients in my diet as possible. My spouse played clarinet in several symphony orchestras after college. There wasn't enough money in it to make a living without teaching music on the side. Now she writes novels; it pays a bit better.

You're right, we should keep the production costs in perspective. I've been on the producing/acting end of things, so I fully comprehend budgets. I also know the risks of cutting corners.

This is a rhetorical question, but I'd be curious if it costs more to solicit work from ...say... the Mont Alto Orchestra than the Alloy Orchestra? I have no idea, but I'd be disappointed if the only reason for selection is being the cheapest way to go.

BTW, nothing would surprise me about a modern Broadway production.

As someone who has been doing synthesized music for nearly 20 years, it has really progressed to the point that it's largely indistinguishable from the real thing if it's in the hands of someone with the proper setup who knows what they are doing (note that I'm not claiming that I'm one---I don't have access to the really high quality samples for starters, and I'm a bit lazy as well). A lot of what you hear on television now is synthesized, and you'd never know it. This is not like the old scores where it was a source of annoyance. That's not to minimize the contribution of live performers at all; but the economics for these things are such that if you want a large orchestra score it's not realistic for most things that aren't on the order of Metropolis or Napoleon. For that, you need to use synthesizers as a fact of life. It doesn't mean, however, that the results aren't acceptable. Check out the samples at Vienna Symphonic Library https://www.vsl.co.at/en/Music and see whether the orchestral sounds there aren't convincing.

^Hear this man.

[silentfilm]

Ditto Jon's accompaniment for Old Ironsides (1926) at Cinecon a few years back. He really knocked it out of the park. It was a brilliant example of how well a synthesizer score can work, and actually felt like it improved the movie.

I've also seen and heard Jon Mirsalis perform on his synthesizer for Don Q, Son of Zorro (1926) at the Niles Silent Movie Museum, and several other films at the Kansas Silent Film Festival like Harold Lloyd's Grandma's Boy (1922) and The Sea Hawk. I know that he accompanies films frequently at Cinecon (although sometimes on piano, other times on synth.) All of these festivals are all about providing excellent accompaniment along with silent films.

In the 1970s, all I could hear was the whir of my 16mm projector when I watched many silent films. I still use my 16mm projector, and I still have over a hundred silent films. Slightly less than half have a musical soundtrack, so I'm still happy with anything that doesn't draw my attention away from the film.

I'll wait until these Kino/Paramount disks are actually released before I think out criticizing them.

I do remember some scores like the way-out-of-print Lumivision Last of the Mohicans (1920) had a synth score that really sounded like a synth, but that disk was released 20 years ago.

Ditto Jon's accompaniment for Old Ironsides (1926) at Cinecon a few years back. He really knocked it out of the park. It was a brilliant example of how well a synthesizer score can work, and actually felt like it improved the movie.

I've also seen and heard Jon Mirsalis perform on his synthesizer for Don Q, Son of Zorro (1926) at the Niles Silent Movie Museum, and several other films at the Kansas Silent Film Festival like Harold Lloyd's Grandma's Boy (1922) and The Sea Hawk. I know that he accompanies films frequently at Cinecon (although sometimes on piano, other times on synth.) All of these festivals are all about providing excellent accompaniment along with silent films.

In the 1970s, all I could hear was the whir of my 16mm projector when I watched many silent films. I still use my 16mm projector, and I still have over a hundred silent films. Slightly less than half have a musical soundtrack, so I'm still happy with anything that doesn't draw my attention away from the film.

I'll wait until these Kino/Paramount disks are actually released before I think out criticizing them.

I do remember some scores like the way-out-of-print Lumivision Last of the Mohicans (1920) had a synth score that really sounded like a synth, but that disk was released 20 years ago.

Bruce, you make entirely valid points. Where I see things a bit differently is in respect to your comment in italisized boldface.

Constructive criticism or suggestions prior to release might actually make for a better release if those concerns reach the decision makers at KINO. Once something is pressed, packaged and on the market it's too late for criticism that benefits the community at large. At that point criticism can only serve future releases if they ever come about.

We're all capable of subjective nitpicking after the fact. What's worth discussing prior to release are matters telegraphed to consumers that might impact their purchase. Just to reiterate, there is a difference between evaluating live music and listening to the same music on a disc format. Sound-wise, my experience has been that orchestral music sounds closer to a live performance on disc than synthesizer music, all things being equal. Others mileage may vary.

FTR, I'm not against the inclusion of the Alloy Orchestra's composition even though the samples provided didn't endear me to this particular score. What I'm hoping is that KINO will at least consider the inclusion of an optional score or soundtrack more in keeping with a musical experience in the silent era, whether that be orchestral, chamber group, piano or organ.

I completely respect Bruce's POV on this, and apologize if my comments come across as argumentative or disagreeable. That's not my intention.

[silentfilm]

Cat, you are not being disagreeable. My response is more directed at those who refuse to consider listening to anything other than a piano or an orchestra.

Since Ken Winokur owns the copyright to Son of the Sheik I can practically guarantee that it will at least have an Alloy Orchestra score. David Shepard's Image/Flicker Alley release included the 1937 reissue score with sound effects, so that is yet another possibility.