FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

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Mike Gebert

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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 12:23 am

Well, I guess I've never seen a silent film then.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 1:06 am

It's unnoticeable on my system, but I have a really nice Epson projector and Oppo player that have settings to correct for it. Both my projector and Oppo are swiss army knives when it comes to making frame rates display nicely. They can interlace or deinterlace on the fly.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 5:54 am

David Alp wrote:What is "Step Printing"? Can someone explain?

From what I can gather (I am probably wrong?) but are you saying that every 5th frame that comes along is then repeated twice? So in other words it would be as follows:

[...]

Is that right? If so -- wouldn't it be too fast to notice?

Plus? Why do they do this in the first place? For what reason?

They do it that way, because interlacing has a bad stigma, in spite of it being able to better (or exactly!) reproduce more frame rates while not being noticeable in motion.

For your 20fps example, for just a brief quick glance, you don't see the constant pausing, but throughout the length of an entire movie, you'd sometimes catch it (but blame your faulty eyes). Combined with minimal movement, as in Siegfried, it's almost passable. Slightly faster frame rates fare much worse; they pause one to two times per second, and you see it every time. Basically, all these speed-corrected BDs and DCPs that chase the holy "24P" run at a broken 24fps; they freeze every second and their consecutive discrete frames are at the wrong frame rate.

We had a long thread a while back on this issue:http://www.nitrateville.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15501&start=90 (conveniently linked to my video demonstration!)
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 8:17 am

It's unnoticeable on my system, but I have a really nice Epson projector and Oppo player that have settings to correct for it.


I suspect that's part of it, because I just watched Siegfried, mentioned above, and the very last thing I would have thought while watching it was "Is the frame rate creating repeated frames?"

In my other life as a food writer, I have a friend who's very scientific about everything—he roasts coffee and literally a few seconds can change it substantially—and he takes this approach to dining out. This dish was a 91, I've had exactly two 94s this year, this kind of thing. Where I'm quite impressionistic about it—this wowed me, this was ennh. But I notice things, make allusions ("the chef used to work at X and this is a very X dish"), etc., that he would not. So we have our different approaches and we'd get different things from the same movie. He'd notice step frames, I'd notice that the way the Huns swarm over the rocks looks exactly like how the apes attack each other in 2001.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 12:53 pm

My Oppo player has a setting for motion smoothing. It isn't the same as the "soap opera effect" on TVs. Even if you turn this up full blast it isn't as strong as that. I keep it set on +1, lowest setting where it's still engaged. That seems to clean up the occasional stray frame without making everyone move like it has vaseline their pants. Those who are sensitive to step printing might try that if they have an Oppo player.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 10:34 am

I would have thought that digital technology would have made display frame-rate issues nonexistent, since we no longer have to crank an actual film. I clearly don't understand the technology behind it, but it just seems bizarre that modern displays have any frame rate restrictions. If I have a film that is 16fps, and I "record it" (if that makes sense) at that rate -- then it should play back at that rate.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 11:20 am

There really is no problem with almost all sound movies and TV shows because there were standard frame rates. But in the silent era there wasn't a standard. Blu-ray was designed to cover all the sound film speeds, but it has to be fudged to do the odd silent film speeds.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 11:58 am

bigshot wrote:My Oppo player has a setting for motion smoothing. It isn't the same as the "soap opera effect" on TVs. Even if you turn this up full blast it isn't as strong as that. I keep it set on +1, lowest setting where it's still engaged. That seems to clean up the occasional stray frame without making everyone move like it has vaseline their pants. Those who are sensitive to step printing might try that if they have an Oppo player.


Big Shot,

What kind of OPPO do you have? I have the BDP 93 and I've looked for a smooth motion setting. Unless it's called something else, my machine may not have it.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 2:38 pm

I have a BDP103D. I checked up and the setting doesn't do what I thought it did. I have the Oppo set to Auto for frame rate and my projector is also set to Auto. I have seen judder, but only on a few discs. Perhaps it would help to go into interlaced mode if you see a lot of judder.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 4:17 pm

Mike Gebert wrote:Well, I guess I've never seen a silent film then.


I didn't say anyone never SAW one, I said they don't know what they're supposed to look like, which you apparently don't - I started to watch Kino's DVD of A Cottage on Dartmoor last night and within five seconds I knew something was wrong - I paused it, went frame by frame, and discovered that every 14th frame had been duplicated - yes, it is noticeable. A step printed film is a compromised film, period - I don't like the fact that works of art are not being presented as they are but are being altered because someone thinks it somehow 'looks' better that way.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 4:35 pm

Nick_M wrote:We had a long thread a while back on this issue:http://www.nitrateville.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15501&start=90 (conveniently linked to my video demonstration!)


Thanks for the link. It's certainly noticeable in the examples and something I suppose I've noticed in the past. I guess I sort of accepted or just assumed that some films look jerky from this era. Guess that's not the case and I'll probably watch differently from now on! Especially if it occurs during scenes like the hammocks swaying back and forth.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostTue Jan 23, 2018 4:47 pm

I didn't say anyone never SAW one, I said they don't know what they're supposed to look like, which you apparently don't


This gets better and better!

Image
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostThu Jan 25, 2018 10:21 am

Saint-Just wrote:I started to watch Kino's DVD of A Cottage on Dartmoor last night and within five seconds I knew something was wrong - I paused it, went frame by frame, and discovered that every 14th frame had been duplicated


Maybe you are particularly sensitive to it, like cats smelling earthquakes before they occur. I hope you do not go out of your way looking for these flaws, because that would be so counterproductive. After all, you bought the DVD to enjoy the film.
If I could have any superpower I wanted I would choose the power to blank out mildly annoying things. Sometimes I can get ever so slightly OCD.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostThu Jan 25, 2018 2:09 pm

I guess Kino's not going to be offering an exchange for those of us who bought the improperly formatted SPIES and WOMAN IN THE MOON, then....
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostThu Jan 25, 2018 4:01 pm

I still remember the days when you'd never see silent films at any other speed than 24fps.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostThu Jan 25, 2018 4:03 pm

Roscoe wrote:I guess Kino's not going to be offering an exchange for those of us who bought the improperly formatted SPIES and WOMAN IN THE MOON, then....


I'm still waiting for them to announce a replacement for the totally messed up Nosferatu. Kino is terrible about fessing up to their mistakes. The other one that's bad about that is Flicker Alley.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 4:13 pm

[quote="Mike Gebert"][/quote]

If they were adding an extra 5 or 6 frames per second to The Big Sleep you'd notice it. It's just as absurd to add frames to a silent film, and is a desecration of the art form.

No, I don't go looking for this stuff - extra frames alter the smoothness of the film, any silent film should look exactly as smooth as any sound film and step printing is designed to destroy that smoothness.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 6:13 pm

You understand that blu-ray is only capable of 24fps, 25fps and 30fps, right? Silent films often run at 18fps, so either you double 5 frames to bring it up to 24, or you interlace up to 24, which means 5 blur frames. The alternative is to just run 18fps movies at 24fps and let them be too fast and too short in running time.

You gotta pick one... repeated frames, interlaced frames or wrong speed. The reason that Kino uses repeated frames is because they can still advertise the disc as being progressive... 1080p. A lot of videophools seem to think interlacing is a sin. If they see 1080i, they don't buy it.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 6:36 pm

Saint-Just wrote:If they were adding an extra 5 or 6 frames per second to The Big Sleep you'd notice it. It's just as absurd to add frames to a silent film, and is a desecration of the art form.


As Bigshot points out above, it's precisely nothing like that, because there is no reason to alter the speed of a 24 fps film in a medium that can play 24 fps. The Big Sleep is ready to go as it is.

But a film meant to be played at 18 or 20 fps must be shown in some way that changes it from what audiences saw nearly a century ago, in order to play on a 24 fps system. You can run it 20% too fast, or slow it down in some way by combining frames.

If you don't like that, collect 16mm and find a projector with an adjustable speed control. There's literally no other choice for what you want (except of course 35mm, doing the same).

Of course, many such titles will never be available to you. I actually heard a great story once about a couple of the rarest films in this set (Harakiri and Four Around the Woman, IIRC), in which they were being shipped from wherever to Los Angeles for preservation. And a famous collector— not Rohauer but of a similar generation and other things— had paid off the post office workers to alert him to such things, and he managed to grab them as they came in, dupe them overnight, and return them by morning.

So you could have gotten your hands on those films like him. Or, they're part of this set now, available to anyone for $112.46 from Kino Lorber.
“I'm in favor of plagiarism. If we are to create a new Renaissance, the government should encourage plagiarism. When convinced that someone is a true plagiarist, we should immediately award them the Legion of Honor.” —Jean Renoir
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostFri Jan 26, 2018 7:38 pm

I once talked to a nutty film collector. He showed me a beautiful video transfer of a film that I thought I'd never see. I asked him where he got it. He said he broke into the UCLA Film & Television Archives in the middle of the night and pinched it. The next night, he broke back in and put it back on the shelf.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 2:03 am

bigshot wrote:I once talked to a nutty film collector. He showed me a beautiful video transfer of a film that I thought I'd never see. I asked him where he got it. He said he broke into the UCLA Film & Television Archives in the middle of the night and pinched it. The next night, he broke back in and put it back on the shelf.



The Roman, referencing Hippocrates, had an expression, Ars longa, vita brevis.

The collector may well have had one of his own, Ars longa, jail brevis
"This bar of likker is now a bar of justice!"
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 10:21 am

George O'Brien wrote:Ars longa, vita brevis.


I always thought this would make a fitting epitaph for someone called Longbottom.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 7:54 pm

I also heard another story about the crew of a top animated TV show sending someone in to steal the student film of a Los Angeles animation critic who had trashed their show in a review. They screened it at their Christmas party, mocked it thoroughly, and returned it quietly afterwards. (I saw the critic's film when I went to UCLA. It sucked.)
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 9:23 pm

Mike Gebert wrote:Well, I guess I've never seen a silent film then.


My eyes just crossed and my head just exploded. I would be more inclined to think that you would be the last one on the website to have never watched a silent movie. To add to that, if that is even possible, I find out that you are not even sure. I do currently have a fever that is likely giving me brain damage right now. I love Fritz Lang. The most work from a single source that I enjoy.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 9:30 pm

I know there are people here who've seen many more than I, but I have a list of features seen that's about to top 500, and a good half or more were projected on film, so that's all I'll say about that.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostMon Jan 29, 2018 9:05 am

So, getting back to the actual contents of the set, I want to cross-link to what I wrote about The Plague of Florence here.

This 1919 film, loosely based on Poe's Masque of the Red Death, was written by Lang and directed by Otto Rippert (Homunculus). Only available on this blu-ray set, it is nevertheless the unknown find of the set, a powerful and epically produced tale of doom. Is it worth buying second copies of all those other Lang films just to get it? Well, you have to figure that for yourself, but for me other than Metropolis, all the blu versions in the set were upgrades from what I had, so all told, yes.
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostMon Jan 29, 2018 1:02 pm

I would like to ask KINO if there are any plans to release The Plague of Florence (1919) as a stand alone blu-ray. I've been wanting to see this for years, but I've already purchased all the Lang releases that I want in the box set. KINO, can you please, please, please release this alone?!
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Re: FRITZ LANG SILENT BLU BOX from Kino

PostTue Jan 30, 2018 12:23 pm

A tangential discussion on the quality of repertory showings and home theaters has been split off here.
“I'm in favor of plagiarism. If we are to create a new Renaissance, the government should encourage plagiarism. When convinced that someone is a true plagiarist, we should immediately award them the Legion of Honor.” —Jean Renoir
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