Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

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tguinan
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by tguinan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:35 pm

Hamilton's Grandson wrote:Thanks Annichen for the information. I agree there should be a better way of obtaining information.

I use very ocassionally for short silent films, use "Treasures from the Film Archives by Magliozzi (1988), but it could use some updating and just gives the producer, director, country of origin, and perhaps the Archive if known.

Regards, Dana
It also only lists what was in their archives as of 1988. It would be great to see what they have managed to collect since then.

andybenz
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by andybenz » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:29 pm

Here we go again: https://www.ebay.com/sch/mirhop/m.html? ... 7675.l2562" target="_blank

Interestingly, the Tillie print seems to consist of sound and silent material. Both look rather dupey, though.

All Darc
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:30 pm

The keystone restorations used multiple source for Tillie, and I think most were not original prints.]This one looks like a print made from a old internegative.

The Live Ghost (1934) looks like a original print, with good contrast and fine shadow details. Probably very sharp. Maybe it worth to be checked if it's better than the official surviving materials.

Is the same seller as before ???
Maybe some relative of hin was a film collector that passed away, and now he is selling the collection.

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andybenz wrote:Here we go again: https://www.ebay.com/sch/mirhop/m.html? ... 7675.l2562" target="_blank"

Interestingly, the Tillie print seems to consist of sound and silent material. Both look rather dupey, though.
Keep thinking...

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Hamilton's Grandson
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by Hamilton's Grandson » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:53 pm

Same seller as before. Likes to use the word "Rare".
Mark Hamilton (I) is on imdb.com
Joseph Hamilton (I) is on imdb.com
Gertrude Brooke Hamilton is on imdb.com

All Darc
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:31 am

Someone should talk with hin, ask about his collection or if he have knowledge about old movies, about lost films...
Hamilton's Grandson wrote:Same seller as before. Likes to use the word "Rare".
Keep thinking...

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Darren Nemeth
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by Darren Nemeth » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:01 am

Frustrating. Maybe one of his talkies is a phonetic foreign language version.
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Tommy Stathes
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by Tommy Stathes » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:00 pm

Hamilton's Grandson wrote:Same seller as before. Likes to use the word "Rare".
When you can buy 80-100+ year old nitrate prints at Barnes & Noble, that's when he should stop using the term!
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All Darc
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:10 am

Sorry to disagree a bit, but a Keystone's Chaplin (with hin in keystone cop uniform) lost film was found in a antiques fair. And a 16mm Keystone film which the finale (a dozen seconds that was lost) was found on eBay.

These Laurel&Hardy original prints are rare, despite the film title itself don't be rare. Some probably have better image quality than the oficial surviving archive elements.

Many Laurel&Hardy talkies was duped for re-release that go and go..., making negatives and sometimes even original prints in good shape, difficult to find.
Tommy Stathes wrote:
Hamilton's Grandson wrote:Same seller as before. Likes to use the word "Rare".
When you can buy 80-100+ year old nitrate prints at Barnes & Noble, that's when he should stop using the term!
Keep thinking...

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All Darc
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:10 am

The videos I saw, and now check on youtube, for The Live Ghost(1934) have a annoying flicker on the left of the screen, and look a bit duped, like a somwhat washed contrast loook, probably a internegative. Unless some archive have a oficial better surving print, this print from eBay it's probably better, considering it's the same version and not foreign version.
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Tommy Stathes
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by Tommy Stathes » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:34 am

All Darc wrote:Sorry to disagree a bit, but a Keystone's Chaplin (with hin in keystone cop uniform) lost film was found in a antiques fair. And a 16mm Keystone film which the finale (a dozen seconds that was lost) was found on eBay.

These Laurel&Hardy original prints are rare, despite the film title itself don't be rare. Some probably have better image quality than the oficial surviving archive elements.
Tommy Stathes wrote:
Hamilton's Grandson wrote:Same seller as before. Likes to use the word "Rare".
When you can buy 80-100+ year old nitrate prints at Barnes & Noble, that's when he should stop using the term!
I think you're agreeing with me!
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All Darc
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:45 pm

OOPS... I was quoting Hamilton's Grandson, but got your post together. Sorry...

By the way, the colorized version, despite very soft focus, nearly blur, do not have the flicker from the other video transfer. SInce it's a colorization from 80's, I supose it haven't how remeve flicker back then.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN5jLxtUSrA" target="_blank

Maybe the best surviving film material in archive, be a original print (as the one on eBay), or a good preservation master, fine grain.
Tommy Stathes wrote: I think you're agreeing with me!
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Brock Davis
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by Brock Davis » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:40 am

He's got 3 more listed now. So let's say you win one of these. It has additional footage, never known to exist or something. What would you do? Do you just post it on the net? Or send it to a company like Kino for their next release? Could they add it to an already existing dvd, for people who purchase it in the future? Would they do that? For that matter, if you found the missing footage of one of the incomplete films on one of Ben Model's releases, would that be possible? I am just asking because I really am wondering exactly what would be done if someone buys this and finds something interesting.

All Darc
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:12 am

edited...
Last edited by All Darc on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Brock Davis
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by Brock Davis » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:22 pm

I guess I was thinking of the Keaton print and that extra footage that guy found of The Blacksmith a couple years ago. I know some of it was uploaded to YouTube in a very blurry copy, but has it ever been cleaned up and inserted into the film on a release? If this version of "The Paleface has something extra, is there a way to get it into a release, and will we have to wait for years and buy yet another complete set of his shorts?

All Darc
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:22 pm

edited...
Last edited by All Darc on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brock Davis
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by Brock Davis » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:41 pm

It's interesting that the first round went for North of $1000, and these didn't even sell for $150. Were the first films that much more rare? We're the only surviving elements worse?

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Thad Komorowski
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by Thad Komorowski » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:09 pm

Or, Serge's report of the lousy condition of the first batch scared people off.

All Darc
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:19 pm

I heard about some bad shape print only discovered aftr check the entire reel..

Before buy people should ask more photos, from each scene. Sonetimes they buy a print, and receive a material with most places deconposing.

Is it possible that some of these prints are from some archive in Prague, that perhaps copied it to safete material years ago, and now sold the decomposing reels to someone or just gave to someone, who is now selling on eBay ?
This whole thing it's a bit strange.

They should contact the archives on Czech Republic. Or just visit this seller in his home and check out all his prints. If they have a fellow film restorer/film archivist colleague in Prague, maybe it could save the costs with tripping.
Thad Komorowski wrote:Or, Serge's report of the lousy condition of the first batch scared people off.
Keep thinking...

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martinola
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by martinola » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:58 pm

While I agree it's a good idea to compare all possible sources for optimal quality, this "Live Ghost" print has german subtitles. My guess is that it may not be the best solution for improved picture quality.

Martin

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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:33 am

Is it just the intertitles a problem, or the german export version have alternate takes or a second camera angle ?
If it's just the intertitles, the american intertitles could replace the german ones.

But we don't know The Live Ghost have a fine grain or at least a lavender made from camera negative. Based in most videos transfer I saw, I presume not great master were available in official archives.
The talkies for Laurel&Hardy was famous and had many reruns, and dupes and dupes were produced after the negatives get too worn. Their silents had not much comercial value after the talkies arrive, and that's why more negatives and good fine grains made from negatives from the silents survived in Hall Roach archives.

It's a great restoration project, but they are still struggling to raise funds. At recent time some titles got funds while other are still waiting. They can't risk too much paying for prints they are not sure if have good condition for the entire reel, and also paying shipping, risking to get a print with most scenes suffering from decomposition. These things already happened in the past. A seller took picture of health frames, and sent a reel with most parts in advanced decomposition.

A wise approach would be contact a film restorer, a friend, near Prague, near enough to a train trip, to check all prints.
martinola wrote:While I agree it's a good idea to compare all possible sources for optimal quality, this "Live Ghost" print has german subtitles. My guess is that it may not be the best solution for improved picture quality.

Martin
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martinola
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by martinola » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:05 pm

More than likely, the text is burned-in over the action, unless the seller is using the term "subtitle" inaccurately.

Martin

All Darc
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Re: Nitrate Laurel & Hardy print on eBay

Unread post by All Darc » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:34 pm

I had read interticles in you post... oops...

Maybe a mistake of the seller.

Subtitles in early talkies... I only saw one movie from 30's with subtitles, once on TV

Suposing it's really subtitle and not intertitle, If it was a unic quality print, it could be archive for future digital erase the subtitle. I alwys judge thing based in future possibilites too. fOR EXEMPLE I imagine one day CGI will be able to 3D estimates all pieces in a 2D movie and add textures to increase or recover details missing. So I imagine it would be possible to use lower quality footage as a scafold for base extructure reference to add the textures, like for recreating missing frames in camera negatives using 16mm surviving prints that had the missing frames.
In the same way it would be possible to better erase subtitles using as reference the lower quality print without subtitles. But it's for future, as such tecnology do not exist yet, despite be possible in theory.

By now, today tools, the lower quality print could replace the areas of alleged subtitles in the better picture quality print, only if the difference it's not very high, by matching histograns, aligning frames of each in perfect match (like in technicolor strips), maybe some few apperture correction for the infrior uality source, and overlaying both prints, cutting off the subtitles.

Anyway all that require money, a huge problem in film restoration's world.
martinola wrote:More than likely, the text is burned-in over the action, unless the seller is using the term "subtitle" inaccurately.

Martin
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