mystery tune of 1934

Open, general discussion of music during the era of classic/nitrate movies
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zigguraticus
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mystery tune of 1934

Unread post by zigguraticus » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:34 pm

I am trying to determine the composer and title of a fox trot melody that is heard in at least two Columbia releases: “The Captain Hates the Sea” (1934) and the Three Stooges short “Horses’ Collars” (1935). In “Captain” it is “played” by the Stooges in the first two minutes of a scene with John Gilbert, Walter Catlett and others (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CPP4OlIzoI" target="_blank) In “Horses’ Collars” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0ROZ4Uwe34" target="_blank) it begins at about 09m15s & accompanies Larry idancing with chubby actress June Gittelson. In both films the same recording is used. My best guess is that it was composed by Archie Gottler who wrote a couple of other songs associated with the Three Stooges during that period. This tune is not to be confused with another composition heard in Stooges shorts, “I Thought I Wanted You” (Gottler-Eliscu), which was also sung by young Betty Grable in a 1934 Columbia short called “Love Detectives.”

I have searched IMDB, YouTube and the Library of Congress listings, inquired at Three Stooges chat sites, the Columbia Pictures archives at U of Wyoming/Laramie, and ASCAP which includes “Three Stooges cues” and “Captain Hates the Sea cues” in Gottler’s listings. (But just because ASCAP lists a composition doesn’t mean they have sheet music, a recording, or any other info.)

I doubt that I am the first person to investigate this matter. I can’t believe this tune has no title and no sheet music and that there is no full recording. It was obviously played by a full studio orchestra, so there must be more residue than the film soundtracks. Anybody have any clues, leads?

By the way, I wouldn’t mind seeing the sheet music to “I Thought I Wanted You.” My query to its publisher, Bourne, so far has gone unanswered.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: mystery tune of 1934

Unread post by Spiny Norman » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:27 am

Did you try soundhound?
This is nøt å signåture.™

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Rick Lanham
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Re: mystery tune of 1934

Unread post by Rick Lanham » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:57 am

I tried both SoundHound and Shazam, but couldn't ID it,
probably because:

1. Those apps are designed to ID and sell us copies of current music.
and
2. Too much talking and slapstick sounds.

Rick

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zigguraticus
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Re: mystery tune of 1934

Unread post by zigguraticus » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:56 am

I figured the music-identifying sites would focus on the NOW's and come up blank with the THEN's, particularly if the latter were 80+ years old and never released commercially.

Richard Finegan
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Re: mystery tune of 1934 - no mystery!

Unread post by Richard Finegan » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:09 am

I am very familiar with that tune. I have been researching this kind of obscure film music for many years. I've always wanted to know the titles and composers of tunes like this, that were used as background music, or as titles music to shorts, etc.
The song asked about is entitled "Are You Mine", composed by Charles Rosoff. I have heard it in several other movies but never performed as a song with words, nor have ever found evidence that it was recorded by any bands or singers in a full version (what a missed opportunity for dance bands at the time!) or that any sheet music was ever published. It was a composition that Columbia did not have exclusive rights to, and so it appears in other movies made by many different studios.
Here is a listing I have compiled over my many years of researching stock/library film music, of 29 other films in which we can hear "Are You Mine":
(And by the way, there is no "master list" of these titles online or anywhere else that I'm aware of - I compiled each one, one at a time as I discovered them over many years of research).

THE THRILL HUNTER (4-30-33) - Columbia
ABOVE THE CLOUDS (10-4-33) - Columbia
THE LOUD SPEAKER (6-1-34) - Monogram
THE HELL CAT (6-13-34) - Columbia
MONEY MEANS NOTHING (6-15-34) - Monogram
THE LADY IS WILLING (7-30-34) - Columbia
BEYOND THE LAW (7-31-34) - Columbia
KING KELLY OF THE USA (9-15-34) - Monogram
THE RETURN OF CHANDU (10-1-34) - Principal
THE PRESCOTT KID (11-8-34) - Columbia
THE CAPTAIN HATES THE SEA (11-30-34) - Columbia
MILLS OF THE GODS (12-15-34) - Columbia
HORSES' COLLARS (1-10-35) - Columbia short
THE BEST MAN WINS (1-15-35) - Columbia
STONE OF SILVER CREEK (4-15-35) - Universal
WHISPERING SMITH SPEAKS (5-15-35) - Fox
THE COWBOY MILLIONAIRE (5-25-35) - Fox
UNKNOWN WOMAN (7-14-35) - Columbia
PUBLIC MENACE (9-30-35) - Columbia
THE BORDER PATROLMAN (7-3-36) - Fox
PILOT X (12-1-36) - Fanchon Royer/Puritan
THE DEVIL'S PLAYGROUND (1-24-37) - Columbia
NAVY SPY (3-13-37) - Grand National
I PROMISE TO PAY (4-21-37) - Columbia
DAMAGED GOODS (5-2-37) - Criterion/Grand National
THE GIRL SAID NO (9-3-37) - Grand National
SMALL TOWN BOY (9-24-37) - Grand National
ASSASSIN OF YOUTH (11-37) - B.C.M./Grand National
LIFE GOES ON (4-1-38) - Million Dollar Productions

Richard Finegan
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I Thought I Wanted You - Musical Novelty song

Unread post by Richard Finegan » Wed Jan 20, 2016 3:44 am

zigguraticus wrote: ...I wouldn’t mind seeing the sheet music to “I Thought I Wanted You.” My query to its publisher, Bourne, so far has gone unanswered.
Just like with the other song you asked about ("Are You Mine" by Charles Rosoff) I'm sure there was no sheet music ever published for this song, at least not for the public (obviously, something must have been printed for the studio musicians who recorded the film's soundtrack). And again, this song appears to never have been recorded by any singers or bands in 1934 (or any other time). It was just one of the many tunes written by Archie Gottler for the Columbia "Musical Novelty" shorts, and apparently never promoted as a popular song to be heard on records or in any way outside of the few Columbia films in which it was used. After its introduction in the 1934 "Musical Novelty" short LOVE DETECTIVES, Columbia reused the tune in several later films, either as titles music or background music.
Researching this for many years, I have compiled a listing of 14 Columbia films in which "I Thought I Wanted You" may be heard:

LOVE DETECTIVES (2-18-34) - short
WOMAN HATERS (5-5-34) - short
PUNCH DRUNKS (7-13-34) - short
BLIND DATE (7-20-34) - feature
TRIPPING THROUGH THE TROPICS (7-27-34) - short
MEN IN BLACK (9-28-34) - short
HIS MARRIAGE MIXUP (10-31-34) - short
THE CAPTAIN HATES THE SEA (11-30-34) - feature
IN THE DOG HOUSE (12-1-34) - short
GUM SHOES (3-1-35) - short
WATER THRILLS ("World of Sports" series) (6-20-35) - short
SPILLS AND SPLASHES ("World of Sports" series) (8-5-35) - short
DISPUTED DECISIONS ("World of Sports" series) (8-22-36) - short
THE GOOSE GIRL (5-30-37) - short

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zigguraticus
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Re: mystery tune of 1934

Unread post by zigguraticus » Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:24 am

That's what I call an ANSWER!! A treasure of info. Thanks a million.

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entredeuxguerres
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Re: mystery tune of 1934 - no mystery!

Unread post by entredeuxguerres » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:57 pm

Richard Finegan wrote:...I've always wanted to know the titles and composers of tunes like this, that were used as background music, or as titles music to shorts, etc. ...
So have I...but was FAR too lazy to undertake this kind of research, even if I knew how to go about it, which I don't. I'm bowled over by your results. Popular '20s & '30s tunes recorded by major vocalists I can often recognize when used as background, along with those used in musicals, but otherwise I'm lost at sea.

Richard Finegan
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Re: mystery tune of 1934

Unread post by Richard Finegan » Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:02 pm

zigguraticus wrote: That's what I call an ANSWER!! A treasure of info. Thanks a million.
That's me - more than you wanted to know!
Glad to be able to help. Researching this kind of film music has been a long-time passion for me, and if my years of researching & compiling info can answer anyone's film music questions, then I'm certainly glad to help. (If you've ever wondered about any other obscure film music, I may have that info too...)

But certainly do feel free to continue to research these tunes, search for recordings or sheet music, etc. and keep us posted - you never know what you may find!

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entredeuxguerres
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Re: mystery tune of 1934

Unread post by entredeuxguerres » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:36 pm

Richard Finegan wrote:...Researching this kind of film music has been a long-time passion for me, and if my years of researching & compiling info can answer anyone's film music questions, then I'm certainly glad to help...
Sorry, Richard, but I'm afraid I'm going to make you sorry you said that, by asking you to identify, if possible, the music heard at the beginning and end of Unfaithful (1931), one of Ruth Chatterton's best, and a great favorite of mine.

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Danny Burk
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Re: mystery tune of 1934

Unread post by Danny Burk » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:47 pm

Richard - I likewise have a question about a piece of music that's used on two silents:

1) In THE MAN WHO LAUGHS, during the Countess' attempted seduction of Gymplaine;

2) In the 1931 sound reissue of BEN-HUR, during a similar scene with Ben-Hur and Iras (Carmel Myers).

I'm thinking that it must be a fairly well-known piece and was considered specifically appropriate to these two similarly-themed scenes, but I've drawn a blank when pursuing ideas.

If you know, I'd love to find out! Thanks.

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zigguraticus
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Re: mystery tune of 1934

Unread post by zigguraticus » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:27 pm

Extremely belated thanks to Richard Finegan for identifying "Are You Mine." For some unfathomable reason I MISSED his excellent reply to my query two and a half years ago! (Must have been distracted by the separate post regarding "I Thought I Wanted You..") Anyway, a great tune, worth listening for among the films on his list.

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