Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Danny Burk » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:03 pm

Am I going to be the first to finally call "troll" ?

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by entredeuxguerres » Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:40 pm

entredeuxguerres wrote:...Can't figure out which ed. TCM last broadcast, which is the only version I have; description says 1995 Dolby restoration, but the date 2001 also appears.
To answer my own question, just watched a bit of ed. I copied from TCM, and since the 2008 Argentine discovery is referenced in the intro, it's obviously Kino's 2010 ed.; no doubt either about the orchestral score. But, it's running too damn fast!

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by WaverBoy » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:16 pm

Danny Burk wrote:Am I going to be the first to finally call "troll" ?
Right you are, Danny. Besides, any METROPOLIS fan worth their salt would know that the projection speed used for the recent restorations of the film is the same as was used for its premiere in 1927; in addition to it being historically correct, they wanted to make sure Huppertz's score matched correctly. This was all publicized at the time of the release of the 2002 restoration. Murnau-Stiftung overruling Lang indeed. Nope.

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by TerryC » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:27 am

Ok -- read through this thread again. WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE "BANKSTERS"?

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Rodney » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:07 pm

TerryC wrote:Ok -- read through this thread again. WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE "BANKSTERS"?
The secret yet powerful conspiracy that controls all global silent film releases on DVD, using such shadow companies as the Murnau Stiftung, the BFI, Flicker Alley, and Kino-Lorber. Started originally by the mysterious Dr. Mabuse and Irma Vep, the Banksters' primary goals are
  • to remove key scenes from films except when they're nefariously adding in mismatched scenes from inferior prints to distract us;
  • transferring films at the wrong speed in such devious ways that sometimes the same release is both too fast AND too slow;
  • hiring musicians unsuited to the task when they could reuse the scores of Gaylord Carter, Carl Davis, or Rosa Rio;
  • perverting the scores of Gaylord Carter, Carl Davis, and Rosa Rio by re-editing the recordings to fit a new film restoration;
  • perverting classic films by re-timing them to fit the scores of Gaylord Carter, Carl Davis, and Rosa Rio.
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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Rick Lanham » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:32 pm

Rodney wrote:
TerryC wrote:Ok -- read through this thread again. WHAT IN THE WORLD ARE "BANKSTERS"?
The secret yet powerful conspiracy that controls all global silent film releases on DVD, using such shadow companies as the Murnau Stiftung, the BFI, Flicker Alley, and Kino-Lorber. Started originally by the mysterious Dr. Mabuse and Irma Vep, the Banksters' primary goals are
  • to remove key scenes from films except when they're nefariously adding in mismatched scenes from inferior prints to distract us;
  • transferring films at the wrong speed in such devious ways that sometimes the same release is both too fast AND too slow;
  • hiring musicians unsuited to the task when they could reuse the scores of Gaylord Carter, Carl Davis, or Rosa Rio;
  • perverting the scores of Gaylord Carter, Carl Davis, and Rosa Rio by re-editing the recordings to fit a new film restoration;
  • perverting classic films by re-timing them to fit the scores of Gaylord Carter, Carl Davis, and Rosa Rio.
• tinting scenes with random color schemes, which on further examination, are found to be the colors originally used.

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by TerryC » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:17 pm

HA! That is hilarious. There are at least two late night radio shows for you to appear on as an expert!

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Real_McCoy » Thu Dec 10, 2015 5:38 pm

if you don't know what a bankster is, you are indeed hopeless. :lol:

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by TerryC » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:00 am

Please make sure you have your prescriptions filled and you take your pills before adding to this thread!

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Mark Zimmer » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:26 pm

hahaha. The point remains that METROPOLIS plays better at about 20 fps than it does at 24. I don't care about the Huppertz score.

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by entredeuxguerres » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:43 pm

Mark Zimmer wrote:hahaha. The point remains that METROPOLIS plays better at about 20 fps than it does at 24. I don't care about the Huppertz score.
One of my favorite scenes is the Garden of Feminine Delights--the one that is so rudely interrupted by Maria & her swarm of brats (where the hell was the doorkeeper???). When Freder chases one of the Delights around the fountain, they move so fast in the 2010 Kino ed. as to appear a blur. This is good? Anyone know the speed of this ed.?

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Rodney » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:55 pm

entredeuxguerres wrote:
Mark Zimmer wrote:hahaha. The point remains that METROPOLIS plays better at about 20 fps than it does at 24. I don't care about the Huppertz score.
One of my favorite scenes is the Garden of Feminine Delights--the one that is so rudely interrupted by Maria & her swarm of brats (where the hell was the doorkeeper???). When Freder chases one of the Delights around the fountain, they move so fast in the 2010 Kino ed. as to appear a blur. This is good? Anyone know the speed of this ed.?
Well, keep in mind that the film speeds in Metropolis are consciously adjusted to reflect the character of what's on screen. It's that German Expressionist thing. Freder moves faster than life, running from room to room. Joh Fredersen (the father) moves slower than life. The robot Maria moves very differently, and at a different crank speed, from the real Maria. The subterranean church services are slow. The garden of delights is frisky. The chase at the end is frantic because civilization hangs in the balance.

Since the most recent restoration was released on actual film (with the Huppertz score firmly attached) to many modern sound movie theaters; I'd be very surprised if it's at anything other than 24 fps, because that's how fast sound projectors go. I'm sure that the DVD and BluRay followed suit, since they use the same score.
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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Nick_M » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:04 pm

Just re-encode the disc or get the Video Yesteryear 130min. Accu-speed VHS already!

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Donald Binks » Fri Dec 11, 2015 5:07 pm

I don't want to get involved in this never-ending controversy regarding silent film speeds but if I can make an observation. I have a 78 r.p.m. recording of some of the musical motifs from "Metropolis" - the Huppertz score, and I can say that the tempos are generally much slower than how the music appeared on the recent restoration(s). I think that Rodney is probably right in that everything was geared towards the normal 24fps sound projector.
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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by wich2 » Fri Dec 11, 2015 8:34 pm

Nick_M wrote:Just re-encode the disc or get the Video Yesteryear 130min. Accu-speed VHS already!
I used to do a little work with them, and also with a Tech there.

Those tapes maddened me, because (maybe in an overcompensation for the fact that so many releases were too fast?) they were generally too SLOW!

-Craig

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by entredeuxguerres » Fri Dec 11, 2015 9:26 pm

wich2 wrote: Those tapes maddened me, because (maybe in an overcompensation for the fact that so many releases were too fast?) they were generally too SLOW!

-Craig
Well, that may be so--I've never seen them--but I think I could use a dose of overcompensation...at least in the Garden of Feminine Delight!

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Real_McCoy » Sat Dec 12, 2015 1:21 am

You need to get a hold of the BBC Metropolis and the Australian Metropolis (which has the writing of Channing Pollock) The speeds of these versions are what I call normal or natural. Then you'll be convinced the Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau Stiftung has cheated the fans royally.

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by WaverBoy » Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:07 am

Real_McCoy wrote:You need to get a hold of the BBC Metropolis and the Australian Metropolis (which has the writing of Channing Pollock) The speeds of these versions are what I call normal or natural. Then you'll be convinced the Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau Stiftung has cheated the fans royally.
And as I stated above, you're incorrect. The film premiered at 24fps with the Huppertz score. The restoration replicates the original theatrical experience as closely as possible.

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Real_McCoy » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:32 pm

WaverBoy wrote:
Real_McCoy wrote:You need to get a hold of the BBC Metropolis and the Australian Metropolis (which has the writing of Channing Pollock) The speeds of these versions are what I call normal or natural. Then you'll be convinced the Friedrich Wilhelm Murnau Stiftung has cheated the fans royally.
And as I stated above, you're incorrect. The film premiered at 24fps with the Huppertz score. The restoration replicates the original theatrical experience as closely as possible.
mr. know-it-all
calling me a troll does not welcome a debate as you have already done so - that means any furthur discussion will conclude with me being stepped on. no thanks. :lol:

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by BenModel » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:49 pm

I've stayed out of this, but just to add to the fun, I've seen the first page of the original conductor's score to the Huppertz, which indicates in handwriting "Kapellmeister: 28/29 bild per ––" (meaning frames per second).

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Rodney » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:41 pm

BenModel wrote:I've stayed out of this, but just to add to the fun, I've seen the first page of the original conductor's score to the Huppertz, which indicates in handwriting "Kapellmeister: 28/29 bild per ––" (meaning frames per second).

Ben
And at that speed, while the action at the end would be all but incomprehensible, the Kapellmeister and his employees would be able to get home before the buses stopped running...
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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by entredeuxguerres » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:29 am

Rodney wrote:
BenModel wrote:I've stayed out of this, but just to add to the fun, I've seen the first page of the original conductor's score to the Huppertz, which indicates in handwriting "Kapellmeister: 28/29 bild per ––" (meaning frames per second).

Ben
And at that speed, while the action at the end would be all but incomprehensible, the Kapellmeister and his employees would be able to get home before the buses stopped running...
That the audience accepted this speed may be another insight (like the electoral success of the National Socialists) into the public mind during the last days of the Weimar Republic. Maybe seeing life on screen passing in a blur somehow soothed their troubled souls (but not mine!); would that Dr. Freud's or Dr. Jung's analyses were available to us. Germany at the time, I conclude, must have been a country like the dominion of the Red Queen, where "it takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast."

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Rodney » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:28 am

entredeuxguerres wrote:
Rodney wrote:
BenModel wrote:I've stayed out of this, but just to add to the fun, I've seen the first page of the original conductor's score to the Huppertz, which indicates in handwriting "Kapellmeister: 28/29 bild per ––" (meaning frames per second).

Ben
And at that speed, while the action at the end would be all but incomprehensible, the Kapellmeister and his employees would be able to get home before the buses stopped running...
That the audience accepted this speed may be another insight (like the electoral success of the National Socialists) into the public mind during the last days of the Weimar Republic. Maybe seeing life on screen passing in a blur somehow soothed their troubled souls; would that Dr. Freud's or Dr. Jung's analyses were available to us. Germany at the time, Expressionist Germany at any rate, must have been a country like the dominion of the Red Queen, where "it takes all the running you can do to keep in the same place. If you want to get somewhere else, you must run at least twice as fast."
I agree. Even in normal times, most people tend to accept whatever is handed to them, especially when it has no great or lasting effect on their lives, figuring that the people in charge must know and besides, what can one do. It's like being out somewhere where the TV has a completely incorrect aspect ratio. I care -- for a minute or two, maybe. But a lot of people have more difficult and pressing problems in their lives, and will let an awkward running speed at a movie show pass.

And of course neither Ben nor anyone other than the original conductor is actually recommending a 28/29 fps speed for Metropolis. It's just yet another data point reminding us that people in the 1920s did not necessarily get things right, and their advice should be considered when available, but not always adopted. Both things can be true: (a) 28/29 frames per second is a terrible speed for Metropolis, and (b) Metropolis was run at 28/29 fps at its premiere.
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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by T0m M » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:29 am

I'm a bit late to the debate and do not receive TCM, so I can't comment if the broadcasts were remasters. However,the laserdiscs of The Crowd (and The Wind and A Woman of Affairs) give Carl Davis composing and conducting credits at the end, during the Thames Television credits that also mention Brownlow and Gill. So, I assume that these credits were dropped and that there was no mention of Brownlow or Gill either? If so, this doesn't surprise me.

It seems that these days the broadcasters often omit end credits to gain a little extra advertising time. Alternately, they minimize them to overlay advertising or run them very fast. On the last point, I can't blame them. Credits on current movies these days are overly long, mentioning everybody involved in the production, regardless of how minor.

Contrary to a previous statement, the laserdisc edition of The WInd and The Crowd do give sleeve credits to Davis (and Brownlow and Gill), but they are on the inside of the folding sleeve. (see scan)

As for the age old debate of whether the films are complete and/or being shown at the correct speed, everyone will have a different preference, and that's fine. However, when it degenerates from civil discussion, I just think about all the great silent films that no longer exist and then the rantings over the survivors seem trivial.
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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by entredeuxguerres » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:18 am

T0m M wrote:...It seems that these days the broadcasters often omit end credits to gain a little extra advertising time...
Happens very frequently on TCM; and what's worse than missing them is being slammed, immediately after "The End" appears, with TCM ads for merchandise, upcoming events, etc.

End credits of Ken Burns productions seem to include friends & relatives of the production crew, janitorial staff, well-wishers, etc.

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Changsham » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:31 pm

T0m M wrote:I'm a bit late to the debate and do not receive TCM, so I can't comment if the broadcasts were remasters. However,the laserdiscs of The Crowd (and The Wind and A Woman of Affairs) give Carl Davis composing and conducting credits at the end, during the Thames Television credits that also mention Brownlow and Gill. So, I assume that these credits were dropped and that there was no mention of Brownlow or Gill either? If so, this doesn't surprise me.

It seems that these days the broadcasters often omit end credits to gain a little extra advertising time. Alternately, they minimize them to overlay advertising or run them very fast. On the last point, I can't blame them. Credits on current movies these days are overly long, mentioning everybody involved in the production, regardless of how minor.

Contrary to a previous statement, the laserdisc edition of The WInd and The Crowd do give sleeve credits to Davis (and Brownlow and Gill), but they are on the inside of the folding sleeve. (see scan)

As for the age old debate of whether the films are complete and/or being shown at the correct speed, everyone will have a different preference, and that's fine. However, when it degenerates from civil discussion, I just think about all the great silent films that no longer exist and then the rantings over the survivors seem trivial.
If we could get a re-release of THE CROWD the same or just as good as the Laser Disc version I would be happy.

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Donald Binks » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:09 pm

It must have been good for musicians in the pit during the silent era. The projectionist could ask them if they wanted to accompany him sink a few sherbets after the performance - letting them know he would speed the film up so they could have more time in the pub. :D And I bet this really happened!
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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Rodney » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:15 pm

Donald Binks wrote:It must have been good for musicians in the pit during the silent era. The projectionist could ask them if they wanted to accompany him sink a few sherbets after the performance - letting them know he would speed the film up so they could have more time in the pub. :D And I bet this really happened!
For a musician who improvises, perhaps. But the most important thing for musicians working from a score is to have the film go at a consistent speed from performance to performance. I recall reading one music director (probably Ernst Luz) complaining about projectionists whose film breaks, then they have to stop to splice it, then they run the film faster to catch up and get the theater back on schedule. This leaves the orchestra not knowing how fast the film was going to be running and causing them to miss their cues.
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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by syd » Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:35 pm

The Christmas scene in The Crowd represents all
the anxieties a son-n-law feels when confronted
with disapproving in-laws.

Would we had the chance would we too have run
to Bert's apartment for some hooch (and lively flappers)?

When John returns home what ensues is tear inducing
and if you see The Crowd with the Carl Davis score
one might escape.

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Re: Observation re: THE CROWD on TCM this evening...

Unread post by Real_McCoy » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:05 am

for those who stayed in school .............. long enough to learn math ...............

Technical Specs
Runtime: 153 min | 210 min (premiere cut) | 93 min (re-release) | 114 min (1927 cut) | 123 min (2002 Murnau Foundation 75th aniversary restored) | 119 min (DVD edition) (2002 Murnau Foundation 75th aniversary restored) | 80 min (Giorgio Moroder) | 145 min (2010 restored) 126 min. (BBC version)

210 minutes = 3 1/2 HOURS which according to this page IMDB was the original time Before the film was confiscated by banksters and destroyed.

But anybody that knows anything about anything knows that whatever they tell you in a disc extra must be true. :roll:

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