Rediscovered films

Talk about the work of collecting, restoring and preserving our film heritage here.
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Gagman 66
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Rediscovered films

Unread post by Gagman 66 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:10 pm

:o I read this article linked to Facebook earlier in the week. Most enlightening. I like that John mentioned some key titles that he is still searching for. Certainly this discovery has to be considered one of the most improbable finds yet. It gives me hope that a complete 35 millimeter print or at least the missing two reels of ELLA CINDERS might yet surface. Or maybe the rest of Frank Borzage's THE RIVER or Herbert Brenon's DANCING MOTHERS.

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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by Agnes » Fri Jun 19, 2015 1:29 pm

Hey Gagman,
Another film you have been talking about is the 1928 Ramona.
Have you seen it yet?

If you haven't, it is playing at Capitolfest in Rome NY in early August.
Agnes McFadden

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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by Rodney » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:14 pm

Ramona is also showing in Loveland Colorado on July 26, and in Colorado Springs on November 21. But that's off topic...
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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by azjazzman » Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:02 am

Gagman 66 wrote::o I read this article linked to Facebook earlier in the week. Most enlightening. I like that John mentioned some key titles that he is still searching for. Certainly this discovery has to be considered one of the most improbable finds yet. It gives me hope that a complete 35 millimeter print or at least the missing two reels of ELLA CINDERS might yet surface. Or maybe the rest of Frank Borzage's THE RIVER or Herbert Brenon's DANCING MOTHERS.
This discovery isn't improbable in the slightest! Not long after Gordon took delivery of the part of the Youngson collection that he had acquired, I had lunch with him and we talked about it. He didn't totally know at that point what all he had. Knowing some of the Youngson history via Bill Everson and Herb Graff, I gave Gordy some ideas as to things he might want to keep an eye out for. Most of them Gordy had already been alerted to. One of the things I mentioned was any potential additional material on Battle Of The Century.

The times I saw Gordon Berkow after that, his health had started to decline and he just shrugged and said he hadn't had an opportunity to really go through all the prints yet. Believe me, Gordon was a savvy enough film collector, if it weren't for his health, he would've found that 2nd reel many, many years ago. Kudos to Jon Mirsalis, in any event.
Last edited by azjazzman on Wed Jun 24, 2015 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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martin arias
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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by martin arias » Thu Jun 25, 2015 4:13 pm

No lost Charley Chase material on the collection? Youngson manipulated various shorts, and from some of them he extracted single scenes which are the only known fragments to survive. It would be glorious is they would appear in at least less fragmentary versions...

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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by martin arias » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:02 pm

"Accidental Accidents", for instance...

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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by Tboneator64 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:26 pm

JonChaneyFan wrote:OK, I stumbled across this thread and see I am being discussed, so let me try to answer some questions that were asked:

1. Yes, BATTLE OF THE CENTURY was in the Berkow collection. It was in a can marked (duh!) BATTLE OF THE CENTURY R2. I just assumed it was the Youngson cut and put it at the bottom of the preview pile. It wasn't until I opened the can and saw that it was a full 400' that my hands got sweaty. I assumed Gordon must have spliced something else on the reel (like the prize fight footage), so I still thought nothing of it. It wasn't until I put it on and started watching that I realized what I had found.

2. Serge Bromberg already has the print and has done a 2K scan. He has been promised all of R1 in 35mm from an archive I can't announce yet. So I believe the entire film will be restored.

3. I have no idea of release date. There are many rights holders on this. Serge has French theatrically only. Someone else has Germany. I think the Feiner family has the U.S. Getting this copied and restored will be one thing. Getting it shown will be another.

4. The additional footage is basically the L&H walk down the street that leads into the pie fight. There are a number of gags with various shop keepers, banana gags, banana peel gags, some business with Charlie Hall, etc. The first half isn't terribly funny in and of itself, but it basically sets up the pie fight.

5. The print was struck directly from the 35mm camera negative, is gorgeous and is absolutely complete from head leader to tail leader.

6. I am done going through all of the Berkow collection except for some 8mm stuff of no interest. Of the 2323 films in the collection, there were 14 lost (i.e., no known FIAF archive holding) feature films: GOOD BAY BOY (1924), GOLDEN TRAILS (1925), BROTHERS (1929), DARING DEEDS (1927), BIG PAL (1925), EAST SIDE WEST SIDE (1923), LASH OF THE WHIP (1924), THE RUSTLER'S END (1928), WITH DANIEL BOONE THROUGH THE WILDERNESS (1926), WOLF TRACKS (1923), THE FORBIDDEN TRAIL (1923), PASSION PLAY (1916? Italian? No one I've talked to can figure out what this is...9R version of life of Christ), THE SUNSHINE OF PARADISE ALLEY (1926), HERE HE COMES (1926).

7. There are also some fragments of otherwise lost features: THE WANDERER, A KISS IN THE DARK, THE FORBIDDEN WOMAN, etc.

8. I didn't mention this at the February Kansas Silent Film Festival talk because I hadn't found it at that point.

9. There are still about 300 titles that I haven't liquidated yet from the collection, but none of them are of any interest (a lot of Castle shorts and otherwise common features). The really good stuff never made it to a sale list, and the good stuff never made it to ebay. If it got to ebay it was of little interest with few exceptions.

I think that answers most of the questions asked here.

Jon Mirsalis
Hi Jon!

I'd say that it does, Jon. It's great to know that THE BATTLE OF THE CENTURY R2 has already been scanned for posterity. Thank you so much for your marvelous post and for sharing such a precious find!

CHEERS! :D

Tony

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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by Mike Gebert » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:05 am

Sunshine of Paradise Alley played Cinevent or Cinesation. Maybe that was Gordon Berkow's print-- I remember seeing his name in the thank yous at at least one of those fests.

Anyway, always good to hear from you Jon!
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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by Eric Cohen » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:45 am

"Good Bay Boy (1924)" is probably Good Bad Boy which is available from Alpha.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0014953" target="_blank
Last edited by Eric Cohen on Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by Christopher Jacobs » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:43 pm

JonChaneyFan wrote: 6. I am done going through all of the Berkow collection except for some 8mm stuff of no interest. Of the 2323 films in the collection, there were 14 lost (i.e., no known FIAF archive holding) feature films: GOOD BAY BOY (1924), GOLDEN TRAILS (1925), BROTHERS (1929), DARING DEEDS (1927), BIG PAL (1925), EAST SIDE WEST SIDE (1923), LASH OF THE WHIP (1924), THE RUSTLER'S END (1928), WITH DANIEL BOONE THROUGH THE WILDERNESS (1926), WOLF TRACKS (1923), THE FORBIDDEN TRAIL (1923), PASSION PLAY (1916? Italian? No one I've talked to can figure out what this is...9R version of life of Christ), THE SUNSHINE OF PARADISE ALLEY (1926), HERE HE COMES (1926).

7. There are also some fragments of otherwise lost features: THE WANDERER, A KISS IN THE DARK, THE FORBIDDEN WOMAN, etc.


Jon Mirsalis
(We may want to split this into a separate discussion thread on rediscovered films) --EDIT: Done!--

It's great that these otherwise lost films can be added to the list of surviving silents. It's quite possible that there are other unrecorded 16mm prints of these and others in various collections that are simply considered to insignificant to bother with. I recall Rusty Casselton showing me the first reel of a beautiful-looking yellow-tinted 16mm print of BROTHERS about 20-30 years ago that he was trying to sell for about $100, but it did not look interesting enough for me to invest in with my disposable income at that time, rare Kodascope original or not (and I've been kicking myself about it ever since!). There's also a user review of BROTHERS on the imdb, so someone else has seen it somewhere (possibly Gordon's print). Some of the other titles sound vaguely familiar and may have played at Cinefest or Cinesation using Gordon's prints.

I take it that none of the 8mm prints are as unique as the 35mm printdown of ROMOLA that used to be the only way to see that film outside of John Hampton's 16mm prints. It's possible that 8mm Kodascopes might include footage that is missing from surviving 16mm Kodascopes, however.

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Re: Rediscovered films

Unread post by Eric Cohen » Sat Jun 27, 2015 1:49 pm

Forbidden Trail-1923 was screened at the 2012 Cinefest. It was vivid and entertaining. Here are Bruce Lawton's notes:
http://www.picking.com/2012-cf-forbidden-trail.html" target="_blank

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Re: Rediscovered films

Unread post by Christopher Jacobs » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:16 pm

Eric Cohen wrote:Forbidden Trail-1923 was screened at the 2012 Cinefest. It was vivid and entertaining. Here are Bruce Lawton's notes:
http://www.picking.com/2012-cf-forbidden-trail.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
Good, thorough writeup! Thanks for reminding me when it was shown. This is a film that would be a good candidate for including in a Blu-ray silent western collection (due to its short length), if not a standalone release, as Olive has been doing with numerous Republic B-westerns running under an hour. Of course a score would have to be prepared for it and a few supplements would certainly be welcome and well-deserved. Here's what I wrote on THE FORBIDDEN TRAIL after the Cinefest screening:
THE FORBIDDEN TRAIL (1923) ***
Another fine Kodascope print magnified the already impressive values of this low-budget but highly proficient and well-written western starring Jack Hoxie. A notorious bandit raises a baby taken from a massacred wagon train as his own daughter. Meanwhile the son of a Colonel he killed in the same wagon train attack has grown up to become a lawman determined to hunt him down, yet falls in love with the girl. Plenty of action and interesting plot twists keep things moving. Especially unusual is the prominent sympathetic supporting role by a black character who knows the secret of the girl's real identity.

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Re: 2nd Reel of Battle of the Century found

Unread post by azjazzman » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:16 pm

Christopher Jacobs wrote:
JonChaneyFan wrote: 6. I am done going through all of the Berkow collection except for some 8mm stuff of no interest. Of the 2323 films in the collection, there were 14 lost (i.e., no known FIAF archive holding) feature films: GOOD BAY BOY (1924), GOLDEN TRAILS (1925), BROTHERS (1929), DARING DEEDS (1927), BIG PAL (1925), EAST SIDE WEST SIDE (1923), LASH OF THE WHIP (1924), THE RUSTLER'S END (1928), WITH DANIEL BOONE THROUGH THE WILDERNESS (1926), WOLF TRACKS (1923), THE FORBIDDEN TRAIL (1923), PASSION PLAY (1916? Italian? No one I've talked to can figure out what this is...9R version of life of Christ), THE SUNSHINE OF PARADISE ALLEY (1926), HERE HE COMES (1926).

7. There are also some fragments of otherwise lost features: THE WANDERER, A KISS IN THE DARK, THE FORBIDDEN WOMAN, etc.


Jon Mirsalis
(We may want to split this into a separate discussion thread on rediscovered films) --EDIT: Done!--

It's great that these otherwise lost films can be added to the list of surviving silents. It's quite possible that there are other unrecorded 16mm prints of these and others in various collections that are simply considered to insignificant to bother with. I recall Rusty Casselton showing me the first reel of a beautiful-looking yellow-tinted 16mm print of BROTHERS about 20-30 years ago that he was trying to sell for about $100, but it did not look interesting enough for me to invest in with my disposable income at that time, rare Kodascope original or not (and I've been kicking myself about it ever since!). There's also a user review of BROTHERS on the imdb, so someone else has seen it somewhere (possibly Gordon's print). Some of the other titles sound vaguely familiar and may have played at Cinefest or Cinesation using Gordon's prints.

I take it that none of the 8mm prints are as unique as the 35mm printdown of ROMOLA that used to be the only way to see that film outside of John Hampton's 16mm prints. It's possible that 8mm Kodascopes might include footage that is missing from surviving 16mm Kodascopes, however.
Those that knew Gordon will chuckle at the thought of there even *being* any 8mm prints in Gordy's collection. He always loudly proclaimed that he would *never* own any 8mm films, that it was a substandard gauge, only for home movie enthusiasts, not for serious film collectors.

Then, somebody showed him a UA8 8mm print of "The Patent Leather Kid" and he went right out and purchased a 8mm projector.

FWIW, I was think about doing a lengthy post about the UA8 8mm WB Silents and how their release just had their 50th anniversary and how that relates to collecting today. I decided, nah, there probably isn't anybody on here old enough to remember or care anyway.

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Re: Rediscovered films

Unread post by wich2 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:03 pm

This ages-ago 8/S-8 collector always appreciates such stories - go ahead!

-Craig

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Re: Rediscovered films

Unread post by Ray Faiola » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:42 am

Well, I have a standard 8mm Kodascope of SMITH'S UNCLE with Andy Clyde and Raymond McKee. I would gladly trade it for a 16mm print. But for now, I'm glad to have an 8mm.
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Re: Rediscovered films

Unread post by Robert W » Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:13 pm

Here's a second request for a post about the history of the UA 8mm features.

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FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by Brooksie » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:05 pm

The Vitaphone Project has just announced the rediscovery and restoration of this previously lost First National Alice White vehicle, which will be reunited with its musical soundtrack and shown at this year's Pordenone Film Festival. The early word is that it's a jazz age romp a la Why Be Good. Hot diggity dog! :D

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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by drednm » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:57 pm

Great! Love Alice White!
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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by Danny Burk » Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:15 pm

Wonderful news!

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Gagman 66
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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by Gagman 66 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:37 am

:o Wow, this news came out of nowhere! It's not GENTLEMEN PREFER BLONDES, but it's still an important movie for Alice White. If Warner's is involved that is encouraging for a potential Archive release, or TCM Premiere too. Put it on their periodic Lost and Found series.

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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by Murnau » Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:02 am

Another good reason to go to Pordenone :)

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Gagman 66
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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by Gagman 66 » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:40 pm

:? Checking on the LOC Silent Movie Data Base it still says "No Holdings In Archives" for this title. So I wonder where the print came from? There are also no updates on CIRCE THE ENCHANTRESS (1924) or THE STOLEN BRIDE (1927) either. Those still says no holdings. Even though we know both were find complete in the Czech Archive at Prague. In addition, Lewis Milestone's SEVEN SINNERS (1925), also currently being restored, hasn't been updated yet.

Some pleasant surprises I found three First National Corinne Griffith films that are listed as complete. SINGLE WIVES (1924), CLASSIFIED (1925), and THREE HOURS (1927). There may be others, those being the ones I have uncovered thus far. Of these titles CLASSIFIED in particular received very good reviews back in they day. :) SIX WEEKS (1923) is apparently incomplete, with 6 of 9 reels accounted for.

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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by David Pierce » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:42 pm

Gagman 66 wrote::? Checking on the LOC Silent Movie Data Base it still says "No Holdings In Archives" for this title. So I wonder where the print came from? There are also no updates on CIRCE THE ENCHANTRESS (1924) or THE STOLEN BRIDE (1927) either. Those still says no holdings. Even though we know both were find complete in the Czech Archive at Prague. In addition, Lewis Milestone's SEVEN SINNERS (1925), also currently being restored, hasn't been updated yet.

Some pleasant surprises I found three First National Corinne Griffith films that are listed as complete. SINGLE WIVES (1924), CLASSIFIED (1925), and THREE HOURS (1927). There may be others, those being the ones I have uncovered thus far. Of these titles CLASSIFIED in particular received very good reviews back in they day. :) SIX WEEKS (1923) is apparently incomplete, with 6 of 9 reels accounted for.
Updates to the LOC database are handled through the Library of Congress's IT department, so they make the revisions on their schedule. We have a list of changes in the queue.

SHOW GIRL, THE MAN AND THE MOMENT, SYNTHETIC SIN and WHY BE GOOD? all came from the same collection in the Milan archive. There are more First National titles in the pipeline, I'm told.

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Donald Binks
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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by Donald Binks » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:45 pm

In the 1980's there was a bit of a campaign here in Oz for each of us to try and find old films - particularly those on nitrate stock as they would not last until the turn of the century.

Blow me down, here we are, a decade and more into the new century and there seem to be more films found today then there were in the entire 1980's. It is all at once, incredible, fascinating and gratifying! Let us hope that this wonderment continues!
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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by pathe16mm » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:18 pm

Great to hear officially that Show Girl has turned up complete. I assumed some of it at least had been found when I saw a few frames of it at this archivists blog: http://un1324.blogspot.com/2014/12/show ... -i-am.html" target="_blank

However I had heard nothing of Circe the Enchantress turning up. I knew the negatives of the stills had been found, but not the film itself. Can anyone elaborate? Is it complete? In decent condition? In the preservation pipeline?

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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by westegg » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:50 am

Can't wait to hear what else is in that Milan archive. Did they uncover a hidden room recently?

:D

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Gagman 66
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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by Gagman 66 » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:02 am

pathe16mm,

:) I posted a lobby-card of Mae Murray in CIRCE: THE ENCHANTRESS (1924) on Facebook a few weeks ago. Subsequently, Hugh Munro Neely who was overseas at the time confirmed that not only did this film still exist, but that he had even seen it. I don't mean on a self, but actually viewed the movie. Don't remember which archive it was in though. Whichever one also has THE FRENCH DOLL (1921) would be the same archive.

Additional First National stuff? Anymore Colleen Moore titles besides NAUGHTY BUT NICE that have turned up? There was something about at least a Fragment of OH KAY!, but I hope it's more then that. How about a Corinne Griffith title such as SYNCOPATING SUE, or MADEMOISELLE MODISTE? Maybe Billie Dove's ADORATION (1928)? Hadn't heard anything about THE MAN AND THE MOMENT turning up? Is this a Talkie or a Silent?
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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by N_Phay » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:04 pm

David Pierce wrote: There are more First National titles in the pipeline, I'm told.
Well, blimey! I put my hands together and pray that one of these will be "Scarlet Seas", but really anything is great and it's always a total delight to read of more stuff crossed off the "lost" list.

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Re: Rediscovered films

Unread post by Robert Moulton » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:43 pm

We (meaning probably just me) can only hope that the Kiss in the Dark fragment features Zeppo Marx.

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Re: FOUND: Show Girl (1928) with Alice White!

Unread post by westegg » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:47 am

Imagine notably filling in the gaps of missing '28-'29 First Nationals and others of this vintage. Not to mention those private collectors who should someday do the decent thing and offer their prizes for posterity.


:)

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