THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

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jjbluecaps
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THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by jjbluecaps » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:32 am

Here comes another comparison: THE IDLE CLASS.
Made up between the 1943 version assembled by Rollie Totheroh (reissued in 1971) - from mainly outtakes - and the original 1921 (?) foreign version, from an Italian print.
Can you imagine that all the Chaplin's First National films that we know today are completely different that the ones audiences saw in the 10's and 20's?
Hope you enjoy!

Last edited by silentfilm on Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Embedd YouTube link

moviepas
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by moviepas » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:45 am

Great!!! It is blocked in Australia.

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boblipton
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by boblipton » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:53 am

Why is it called the "Daddy" version?

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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by Steve Massa » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:03 am

I've been told that the "Daddy version" is how the Chaplin family consider the last reissued versions of his films where he composed the scores. They feel that these are the official versions as they were his final work on them. Of course this is very debatable, but that's the scoop.

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jjbluecaps
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by jjbluecaps » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:22 am

moviepas wrote:Great!!! It is blocked in Australia.
Yes, unfortunately YouTube has blocked it in 43 countries. :(

wich2
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by wich2 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:42 am

>completely different that the ones audiences saw<

(Italics mine.)

With respect, I don't think that phrase is totally accurate. (The plot, cast, sets, style, etc. are all the same.)

- Craig

BarneyS
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by BarneyS » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:09 pm

Not as glaring a difference as with something like Shoulder Arms or The Kid. I think the Italian version sells the cocktail shaker gag a bit better but it's sometimes a hard comparison to make since the Italian print is zoomed in and missing action going on at the edges of the frame.

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radiotelefonia
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by radiotelefonia » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:13 pm

Here is an edited version of the opening scenes, featuring titles and the opening shot.


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radiotelefonia
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by radiotelefonia » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:15 pm

jjbluecaps wrote:
moviepas wrote:Great!!! It is blocked in Australia.
Yes, unfortunately YouTube has blocked it in 43 countries. :(
Use this site to overcome the restriction: https://unblockyoutube.video/" target="_blank

moviepas
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by moviepas » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:53 am

Thanks I will give it a go.

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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by Darren Nemeth » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:36 pm

Thank you for posting this.

Although the Italian version is cropped I was able to see a few shots in crossed-eyed 3D.
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Smari1989
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by Smari1989 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:26 pm

Couldn't watch the IDLE CLASS comparison on my computer, unfortunately, but nice initiative!

I know I've said this at least twice before here, but I feel it needs to be repeated every now and then... The 1919 print of SHOULDER ARMS stored at the Danish Film Institute, presumably the only print from its original run known to exist, NEEDS to be released, in one way or the other. One can dream.

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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by topchap » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:44 pm

I should probably just shut up and let this A/B comparison simply proceed without me... but I’ve been mulling an analogy for a while now, so I won’t. I find it interesting to think of a film (photoplay) as being similar to a legitimate play, with outtakes being a bit like rehearsals and the A version being like a theatrical premiere, where the director decides the performances are where they need to be to be presented to the public. Or, perhaps outtakes are like a premier relative to a later (or final) performance where things are even more finely honed. Sometimes the differences are simply the difference between sitting in row E seat 15 and row E seat 17. What adjective is appropriate to describe the difference?

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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by topchap » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:07 pm

“I know I've said this at least twice before here, but I feel it needs to be repeated every now and then... The 1919 print of SHOULDER ARMS stored at the Danish Film Institute, presumably the only print from its original run known to exist, NEEDS to be released, in one way or the other. One can dream.“

I have seen a 16mm print from a private collection VERY similar, if not identical to the contents of the DFI material, that was documented with a label “Unauthorized print obtained from our lawyers in New York” and dated 1938. Makes me wonder if the DFI film is an original release print or sourced from an early bootleg. And if bootlegged, was it from original release or other source?

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martin arias
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by martin arias » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:30 pm

The "Idle Class" comparison is interesting, but with the exception of the gag with the drinks and a few much minor shots (one of which, the car with Edna entering the villa, is absent from the Daddy print), the print is made up from the same exact takes from negative B. That is, the exact montage but taken by another camera located a few centimeters to the right of the one that captured negative A. The reason why the few different takes were put into the Daddy print, might probably be that extant materials from the originally chosen shots in good quality were no longer available.

A far more interesting comparison is looking in parallel at the original SHOULDER ARMS print (or at least the most close to it we can find, which is the Pathe print from the early 1930s) and the Daddy version of that film. I watched them both in parallel yesterday, and amazingly NOT A SINGLE TAKE from the Pathe print, which is much more closer to what the original audiences watched, is the same as on the Daddy print. Not a single shot. Or to be precise: one single shot, that of Edna's house falling with the German soldiers on it, which was probably taken with various cameras due to the difficulty of destroying twice such a set. The rest are similar but different takes, with similar but different approaches and camera angles-. I had a very battered and incomplete 16mm print of SHOULDER ARMS with Spanish intertitles, and remembered some stuff which I had never seen again in the Daddy's print, such as Charlie eating and spitting an apple due to the effect of the bombs while having "A Quiet Lunch" with Syd. It's on the Pathe print, which also has Charlie surrounding the guy who brings the presents excited like a little child (on the take on the Daddy print his reaction is much more quieter). Also, the Pathe print has several close ups of Charlie dressed as a tree, which are completely absent from the Daddy print.

It's really fascinating to watch the differences on each shot of the two versions of the film!

I cannot tell how close the Pathe print may be to that stored by the Danish Institute...

Martin

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Darren Nemeth
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by Darren Nemeth » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:22 pm

Image



I took two screen caps and matched them up. To the left is the official Chaplin version and to the right is an Italian version, which sadly is severely cropped.

To see the 3D effect cross your eyes and merge the two images together.
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Re: THE IDLE CLASS A/B Cameras Comparison

Unread post by Smari1989 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:12 pm

The thing about SHOULDER ARMS is: making the 1919 print available again wouldn't just be a lovely curiosity to Chaplin fans. It is also a damn important film; Chaplin's greatest money-maker up to then, the first great war comedy on film, and widely lauded (in its time) as THE silent comedy of the 1910s. As late as the 1930s, new film comedies were being compared to it. If the Chaplin Estate reads this -- please consider making the effort to restore the Danish 1919 SHOULDER ARMS back from oblivion. Make it an extra on the next Chaplin Revue DVD, without a soundtrack if necessary. But if at all possible, it should be made available again. That's my two cent.

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